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Hall of Fame baseball writer Hal McCoy has retired from the Dayton Daily News after covering the Cincinnati Reds for 37 years. Hal's blog, though, will continue to be a must-read for Reds fans. He'll share his thoughts on the team this season and will file updates from Great American Ball Park. You also can catch Hal in print every Sunday in his popular Ask Hal columnHome > Blogs > The Real McCoy | Cincinnati Reds baseball news > Archives > 2009 > August > 14 > Entry
Do batting orders matter right now?
DON’T KNOW if I can function tonight. The vanilla side of the ice cream machine isn’t working and I have to make do with chocolate. I’ll survive, maybe.
FOR THOSE who have harped and harped and harped on Dusty Baker’s lineup cards, well, early in the season - when it mattered - I concurred with wondering why Willy Taveras kept batting leadoff. Made no sense when he never got on base.
When Taveras walked in the first inning tonight, it was his first walk since July 19 and fourth since May 24. Just pathetic.
But let me ask you. Who should bat leadoff? And don’t give me Chris Dickerson (.267 with a .363 OBP). The Reds entrusted that spot to Taveras when they signed him (Why? Don’t know. He never has had good leadoff numbers).
NOW EVERYBODY is up in the air over Paul Janish batting second. Who else? And who cares at this point where anybody bats when the Reds can’t find first place with mount Palomar? What the Reds need to find out is if Janish can play every day and produce. He is a magician with the glove but a sorcerer with the bat. If he can hit .265 and maintain his magical glove he can play every day.
So maybe batting second and getting a lot of at-bats will give Janish an opportunity to show what he can (or can’t) do with the bat.
REMEMBER WHEN the Reds had two shortstop prospects at the same time, Barry Larkin and Kurt Stillwell? Some Reds’ front office folks wanted to move Larkin to second base and play Stillwell at short.
Larkin balked and said he didn’t want to move to second. Stillwell made the move until finally the Reds traded him to Kansas City. I’ve often wondered what would have happened to both their careers had Larkin moved to second and Stillwell stayed at short?
I was shocked when the Reds traded Stillwell, who reminded me of the Ron Howard character Opie in The Andy Griffith Show. In fact, his teammates called Stillwell Opie. Anyway, owner Marge Schott loved Stillwell and called him, “My little Kurt Stillwell.” That’s why I’m surprised she permitted him to be traded away.
Speaking of Marge Schott, this one is one of my favorite stories and it involves former Valley View High School star Thomas Howard, a former Reds outfielder.
Well, at the same time, Marge had a gardener named Howard. One day, GM Jim Bowden came to Marge and said, “I’m going to trade Howard. The Astros want him.” To which Marge replied, “Why do the Astros want my gardener? Don’t they have AstroTurf?”
Ah, there is a game going on down there. So far it is 1-0, Nationals, but the Reds have runners on first and second with two outs.
Janish just poked a single to right center and, omigod, third base coach Mark Berry is sending 6-foot-7, 260-pound pitcher Aaron Harang on home from second, even though center field Nyjer Morgan had the ball as Harang tagged third.
This is flawed three ways from Monday:
ONE - Harang is running.
TWO - Morgan leads the league in assists with 12.
THREE - Joey Votto is scheduled to bat.
But Harang duitfully trudged homeward and catcher Wil Nieves could have unstitched the baseball and stitched it back together before tagging Harang.
Once upon a time, former Reds Othird base coach Joel Youngblood was coaching third for Milwaukee. When he sent a runner home, a runner that had no chance, Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel writer Tom Haudricourt, shouted out, “Oh for God’s sakes.”
My thoughts exactly. I’ll steal a line from the famous Bob Uecker on this one and say, “Instead of having a third base coach, why don’t they just put a pair of dice out there?”
Bake defended Berry by saying the ball was to Morgan’s left and because he is a lefthanded thrower he had to stop and set, “And he nearly slipped trying to set. Coaching third base is the toughest job in baseball. You make eight great calls, then you make one that doesn’t work and it stands out, especially when you get shut out. Mark Berry has done a great job for us.”
The game? That’s right. The Reds were shutout. What did you expect the Aaron Harang pitching. It was 2-0, even though the Reds outhit the Nats 8-6. Harang gave up home runs to the No. 7 hitter (Ronnie Belliard) and the No. 8 hitter (Wil Nieves) and that’s all it took.
Harang should go on a hunger strike.
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By BrarHopper
August 15, 2009 5:52 PM | Link to this
Wiz: Bingo! Bingo! & Bingo! You are spot on with your comments. Only a complete foll (spelled Dusty Baker) CONTINUES to lead off a loser like WT batting .235 and an OBP of .273. Oh, and does everyone remember WT boasting that he’d steal 100 bases! He has 24. He must get his stupidity from Baker and lies from Castellini. Baker has proven himself totally incompetent and MUST go ASAP!
By Wizard
August 15, 2009 5:04 PM | Link to this
Gomes and Dickerson will only get better! But, they have to be played regularly, and consistently, in the CORRECT positions, offensively and defensively!!!!!!!
By Kyle
August 15, 2009 4:57 PM | Link to this
Of course line ups still matter. If you show the team that wins don’t matter and bat people in places where you have no real expectations for them, how do you evaluate them? Especially the newer guys you might bring up. They need to coach and play every game till the end like it matters, if not for the standings, then for their job/future with the team.
By Wiz
August 15, 2009 4:37 PM | Link to this
Mike: your points are excellent! It is like we have a “mole”, managing!
By Wizard
August 15, 2009 4:14 PM | Link to this
Thank you Jerry. Goodgod I’ve been saying about CD, FOREVER. I want to strangle Dimwit!I cannot believe ANYONE would be that damned stubborn. I am still convinced that id CD was played in CF, ONLY,I said ONLY, and was our leadoff man EVERY NIGHT-he would solidify himself in those positions, FOREVER! But, BAKER, keeps screwing him! In fact Baker has srewed Hanigan/Janish and Dickerson ALL DAMN YEAR! Any time anyone looks like they might be getting comfortable we don’t see them for three weeks! Then, we have to listen to more moronic talk about there being NO TALENT on this roster! That is BS! Talent has to be given opportunity-REGULAR, and consistant opportunity!!! With Baker managing, it hasn’t, and won’t happen.
By Mike
August 15, 2009 4:10 PM | Link to this
Lineups in the sense of the word, Baker has all season sit a “hot ” bat. He gives various reasons for doing it, righty vs lefty etc, “somebody needs to get some innings,” etc. Case in point, 2 games ago Hannigan goes 2-4 with a HR ( and anchored for life in the 8 spot ), Baker lifts him for Tatum the next game who went 0-4 and hitting a miniscule .129. In baseball or any sport, go with the hot hand. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it! Saturday..Gomes will sit and read a magazine while Taveras plays.As you said, the Reds entrusted him to lead off when they acquired him. Obviously, he ain’t the man!
By Jerry, Venice, Fl.
August 15, 2009 3:15 PM | Link to this
Dusty’s lineups continue to baffel me. He keeps playing the cold hitters. Then he has Wlad come over and get on base 11 times in last weekends series with S.F.. 7 game hitting streak going into last night and he sits most of the week! Good way to cool him off Dusty! I am surprised Dusty didn’t sit Gomes after his 3 HR game. He plays them like he is afraid someone might get hot and put a streak together. Pathetic! Everybody but Dusty knows CD is a better CFer than WT.
By nyc
August 15, 2009 2:03 PM | Link to this
batting order never matters with the reds…they stink…PERIOD…same thing year in..year out…very consistent losers…these articles about the reds appear every year..at the same time…their season is ALWAYS..over before april…apparently reds fans actually have hope…what a joke…
By Mike-Cinci
August 15, 2009 12:04 PM | Link to this
I agree with those who think it is time to look at some of the young talent such as Stubbs, Heisey, and Frazier. The Reds need to think long and hard whether it is wise to move Phillips to SS. One problem with bringing the young players up now is they must play or the Reds will be wasting valuable development time. Sitting on the bench watching Taveras, Balentein, Nix, Gomes, Dickerson play would not be helpful to them. Also it no fun sitting on the bench watching a team sink lower in the standings. Maybe the best approach is to have them come to Spring Training next year with a commitment from management that they will be given the chance to play. Unfortunately it is very possible the Reds could go next year with an outfield of Bruce, a Taveras/Dickerson platoon in CF, and a free agent pick-up for LF. That means Heisey and Stubbs will still be in Louisville and 2 from Gomes, Nix, and Balentein will be the back-up outfielders. For the record this scenario has me worried. Is it possible the Reds brain trust does not believe Stubbs and Heisey can be big leaguers? Fixing this won’t be easy.
By Steven Ross
August 15, 2009 11:01 AM | Link to this
I’d rather see Dickerson leading off then Corey Tavaras. I’d rather see Balentien play CF than Corey Tavaras. Dusty’s lineups, which never makes sense, should be enshrined in the Baseball’s Hall of Shame. Flat-out crass! I’ll be so happy when Baker is fired.
By HavaKlu
August 15, 2009 10:57 AM | Link to this
Mike-Cinci, you continue to be the most astute observer of the Reds situation. Player development is the key. Now is the time to bring up Stubbs, Heisey and Frazier. So what if they’re not on the roster—make room by jettisoning dead wood such as Richar, Wells,and Nix. These guys can easily be replaced by next season. We need to know what the “prospects” can do. They have over 400 minor league games each! If anything their confidence is being eroded by not being called up to this sorry team! Anyone notice that the Red Sox didn’t hesitate to bring up an OF (Reddick) from AA and put him in the lineup!!
By It's Over
August 15, 2009 10:51 AM | Link to this
Mike-Cinci says it’s over. Take your gloves and go home.
By Jack
August 15, 2009 9:28 AM | Link to this
Good point by Mike-Cinci, not many prospects in the minor leagues. Very cool story about Kevin Barker, but kinda sad that a 34 year old player is the best the Reds got down there. Instead of bringing up some of the better AA talent, they are playing old guys…no wonder Louisville always wins. Guys like McDonald, are not being groomed for the major leagues, just holding roster spots.
By Austin Red
August 15, 2009 9:27 AM | Link to this
WT & AG are among the worst in baseball at getting on base and advancing along the basepaths (i.e.clogging). It doesn’t make any sense to put them at the top of the order. Nor does it make sense to fill in a lineup card by rote (1=CF, 2=SS … 8=C, 9=P) each and every game. What bugs me now, though, is the sense that everybody’s given up. Are we really saying “We don’t have to put out the best lineup possible because the situation’s hopeless”? I would argue the opposite: work at it even harder, and certainly try something different.
By Mike-Cinci
August 15, 2009 9:12 AM | Link to this
All the suggestions about moving players around, changing lineups, firing managers and coaches is like moving the deck chairs on the Titanic. This team has a roster loaded with minor league players. The problem is talent and when you don’t have enough of it you lose like the Reds, Nats, Royals, Pirates, and Padres. Doing all of the things suggested by many has already been done by the Reds over the past 9 years and by the other bumpkin teams with bad results. Until this franchise fixes its drafting and player development program it will always lose. The current Reds farm clubs are last or near last in every league they are in. The only exception is Louisville and there are no hot prospects there either. How are the Dayton Dragons looking? Anbody there looking like a “hall of famer”? What the Reds management sees in Billings, Dayton, Sarasota, Carolina, and Louisville is the problem. A roster filled with balanced talent wins. The Reds aren’t close.
By gary
August 15, 2009 8:58 AM | Link to this
I totally agree with ‘the plain truth’ about coach Berry… i have said for years he gets way too many runners thrown out at home plate.. there is a fine line between being aggressive and being smart… i don’t think he has a clue on who has wheels and who doesn’t.. Harrang sure don’t.. and I’m getting tired of Dusty sticking up for everybody..i think he should kick some butt once in a while….
By flipper
August 15, 2009 8:33 AM | Link to this
It sure doesn’t matter for the Reds. Put the bat boy in cleanup spot. He can’t do any worse.
By Jim M.
August 15, 2009 2:36 AM | Link to this
Hal,, I would bring Stubbs up and let him bat leadoff (46 steals) at least do something different!! Its ridiculous when Taveras gets on he DOESNT STEAL or then he does when its to late!!! He should have been running when Janish was batting in the 1st. You can see it frustrates Votto!! And also late in the game bases loaded our .133 hitting catcher is allowed to bat!! what a great showing by Dusty to his starter Harang!! Then later we find out Hanigan has a neck issue again.. SOOO why not get a catcher up here to help out?? Tatum is overmatched!! heck they could have brought Valentin back!! at least he can hit!!!
By Wiz
August 15, 2009 1:51 AM | Link to this
Knowing now, what they were paying Gonzo: NOT to play; and what they paid him for 62 games this year-8.5 million sounds like a bargain to me, to sign Hernandez! Sure seems to me that they can work some kind of deal. Having been the first poster last year to suggest BP be moved to SS- because of his great range/arm; and the fact that it is where you play your best infielder-and seeing that it could now be finally about to happen-haven’t heard a peep from all those know-it-all naysayers, who blasted me for suggesting they move a “gold glover”. “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”, they said. How did Gonzo and Hairston work out for ya’? Shame on me.
By the plain truth
August 15, 2009 1:41 AM | Link to this
Not that it would have mattered tonight but they might as well call berry “dead Meat.” That guy gets more people thrown out than anyone on the planet. I wonder if they keep a stat like that for 3rd base coaches. I guarantee he would be at the top of the list.
By justin
August 15, 2009 1:40 AM | Link to this
what is wrong with Dickerson leading off? He has a pretty solid OBP. It is third on the team behind Votto and Hanigan. Though Dickerson can get more extra base hits than Hanigan. I would go… C-Hanigan CF-Dickerson 1B-Votto LF-Gomes 3B-Rollen 2B-Phillips RF-Nix SS-Janish PITCHER If Gomes falls back to Earth I would simply bump Rollen and Phillips up, and have Gomes bat before Nix.
By MAC
August 15, 2009 12:54 AM | Link to this
If things don’t change going into next season, I’d bat BP lead-off. He’s done it well before, he can use speed more & stop overswinging…just get on base. JV would hit 3rd, followed by Rolen, Bruce, Gomes ect. Question is what will they do in CF, SS & Catcher?
By MAC
August 15, 2009 12:39 AM | Link to this
@ this pt, I’d have to agree w/ U Hal; it doesn’t matter. Then again, I don’t see the value in keeping WT & others in the game when we’ve watched them fail all season long either! Why not look @ CD in CF more, Votto in LF, BP @ SS, Gomes @ 1st, Heisey, Stubbs or Frazier?
By Jimmy
August 15, 2009 12:25 AM | Link to this
Bat Rosales leadoff and watch this team ignite!
By Mike
August 15, 2009 12:16 AM | Link to this
Let me call out the elephant in the room. Half of this lineup belongs at triple A; When the opposing pitcher gets past our number 6 hitter, he knows it’s clear sailing through hitters 7-8-9-1. That means, the five remaining players have to carry the offense. And you dont win in the National league that way. I know we have had injuries, but ownership and management must bear a degree of shame for presenting this product to their fans.
By Aaron B.
August 15, 2009 12:03 AM | Link to this
Hal we can talk batting orders, injuries, bad luck, lack of talent.. the bottom line is this. The past two seasons under Baker have been a debacle. Its been some of the ugliest baseball any of us have ever seen, and I am sure you would agree with that sentiment. Why on earth should management keep this coaching staff in tact next season? If they somehow finish .500 are they going to sign them for 2011 and beyond? I don’t believe Jocketty would hitch his wagon to that horse. Why not cut baker loose and bring in Chris Sabo — a young hungry firecracker that everybody loved as a player. Can you imagine seeing him stick with taveras in the leadoff spot this long? Sure he would make some rookie managing mistakes, which is why you let him get his feet wet now when the season is clearly down the tubes. Fans would start showing up and if they show life people would buy season tix next year. The whole coaching staff needs to be swept aside. This is business and the bottom line is failure. The axe needs to come down. I urge every diehard fan to make call after call to the Reds business offices and demand that Baker be dismissed. There are a thousand reasons why and we all have our own opinion. Honestly even if all the excuses are valid it doesn’t change the fact that we are all sick of death of his shtick and his shenanigans and his relentless stubborness in not experimenting and trying different things. I believe if jerry Narron had Francisco Cordero as his closer like Baker does he could have performed better with this roster than Dusty has. I am seriously considering making a trip to Cincinnati next summer to follow this ballclub if a manger change is made. If Baker is kept on there is ZERO chance of me doing that. How many others are thinking that way as well? This is a tough economy and upper management is going to have to give me a reason to spend money on this team next season and keeping Dusty Baker aboard is a big fat negative.
By Jarrod
August 14, 2009 11:55 PM | Link to this
Hey Hal, Have you heard anything on Scott Rolen? The situation has been quiet since he went on the DL and I was wondering if he’s feeling any better?
By JD
August 14, 2009 11:50 PM | Link to this
Well Hal, I AM going to give you Dickerson. I mean, his OBP of .363 ain’t bad at all. That’s MUCH higher than Wet Willy’s. Therefore, he’s better at getting on base, and is therefore a better leadoff option. He’s the only true leadoff guy the Reds have on the team. I don’t see what’s so wrong with him. Do I consider him the Reds’ future? No, that’s Heisey or Stubbs. But, he’s their best choice right now.
By RC
August 14, 2009 11:45 PM | Link to this
Batting orders matter mostly in a general sense - put guys who get on base in front of guys who can drive ‘em in. But we really don’t have anyone on this roster who’s a legitimate leadoff hitter. So I’m agnostic as to who bats leadoff, except I’d prefer someone who has an OBP over .300, if that’s not too much to ask. But let’s look at Adam Dunn, who’s hitting 40 points better than last year, IMO largely because the Nats plugged him in the 4 hole and hit Josh Willingham after him, whereas the Reds dropped him to the shameful 6th spot where nobody felt the need to challenge him. Watching the Reds do the same thing to Jay Bruce this year ticks me off to no end. Me, I’d plug Jay in the cleanup spot and hit Phillips 5… or even Votto 5, and see what he can do with a better class of pitches. But I’m crazy like that.