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Hall of Fame baseball writer Hal McCoy has retired from the Dayton Daily News after covering the Cincinnati Reds for 37 years. Hal's blog, though, will continue to be a must-read for Reds fans. He'll share his thoughts on the team this season and will file updates from Great American Ball Park. You also can catch Hal in print every Sunday in his popular Ask Hal columnHome > Blogs > The Real McCoy | Cincinnati Reds baseball news > Archives > 2009 > December > 27 > Entry
Reds shouldn’t trade starting pitchers
It has been a couple of weeks since the Los Angeles Times published a rumor that the Cincinnati Reds were talking with the Dodgers about trading Aaron Harang.
And that’s the last peep we’ve heard about it and it appears no other media outlet heard the same rumor.
To that, I say, “Good.”
Why would the Reds want to trade pitching, especially starting pitching, now that it seems to be a fairly stable commodity in their somewhat bare cupboard of players?
I’ve never been a big (or small) fan of Jim Bowden, but when he was general manager of the Reds he had a sign on his office wall that had three words: “Pitching, pitching pitching.”
And he is so right.
ONE BIG REASON the Reds shouldn’t be trading starting pitchers is the fact starter Edinson Volquez underwent Tommy John surgery and probably won’t be ready to pitch until June or July of next season.
So they need Harang, even though his record over the past two seasons is 12-31 (6-17 and 6-14). No, that isn’t good. Not even average. And for $11 million a year, it is putrid.
There are extenuating circumstances. In his 26 starts last season, the Reds scored 89 runs, or 3.42 per game. They scored two runs or less 12 times and twice were shut out. Reds batters hit .239 when he was pitching.
I won’t get into the argument over whether something happened to him after manager Dusty Baker used him in relief on two days of rest during an extra inning game in San Diego, then used him again two days later on his regular turn - or if he was affected when he was one out from recording a victory last season and Baker let him come back after a long rain delay to get that out.
We’ll never know if that affected him. It is a subjective thing and there is no proof either way. Smart? Probably not. But Harang is a big, strong durable fellow.
ALL I KNOW is that he is only 31 and that he is one strong and tough specimen at 6-7 and 261 pounds.
Last year when the team was in Pittsburgh, Harang’s appendix screamed to be taken out. Harang wanted to be home in Cincinnati near his family, not at a Pittsburgh hospital. Flying was too dangerous - what if the appendix erupted while he was in the air?
So equipment manager Rick Stowe put him in a car and they drove the four-some hours from Pittsburgh to Cincinnati. While in pain, Harang kept his sense of humor and kept faking that he thought his appendix would burst any moment. Stowe, several times a father, drove with sweaty hands and forehead like a first-time expectant father rushing his wife to the hospital.
That was on August 23 and Harang didn’t pitch the rest of the season. In his previous three starts he was 1-1 with a 2.14 ERA.
Typical of Harang’s season was an August 3 start against the Chicago Cubs. He struck out 10, but lost, 4-2. His last start before the appendectomy came on August 20, a 2-1 victory over the San Francisco Giants. But he, of course, did not get the win. He got a no-decision and a few pats on the posterior or a job well done.
Everybody knows the Reds are cash-strapped (aren’t we all these days?) and need to shave quarters, dimes and nickels. So discarding a salary like the one Harang hefts to the bank is a big mone-saving deal.
But it wouldn’t be in the best interests of trying to win more baseball games in Cincinnati.
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By pera
February 13, 2010 4:04 PM | Link to this
Damn, that sound’s so easy if you think about it.
By roulette
February 3, 2010 8:40 AM | Link to this
Hey, ok, I get it, I guess - but does this really work?
By Mike-Dayton
January 5, 2010 7:00 PM | Link to this
Correct on losing their better players - which is why the Reds to take the risk and sign their “key” players for long term contracts before their free agency - essentially buying out a few years of their free agency while paying them more in their early years. The risk of the Reds not doing this exceeds the risk of doing it. Small market teams should never invest heavily in a Closer yet the Reds have Cordero at $10M with 1/7 or more of the payroll. What the Reds need is a PLAN - three GM’s, two owners, four or five managers and some horrible free agency signings would indicate they haven’t had one in many years.
By MAC
January 5, 2010 6:01 PM | Link to this
One would think so, but it didn’t work that way when Dunn was here; SP wasn’t as strong then. That’s an old argument that’s been rehased many times over. My pt is when Stubbs, Bruce, Heisey, Frasier, Francisco & others R supposed to be ready, my guess is Votto will be too expensive, BP, Rolen & most of the SP we have now will be gone…same ole song in dance we seen many times over as Reds Fans. Reds haven’t been very successful at developing players over the last 10-20 yrs & IMO many of the current prospects R worth more NOW in trade than they will be after they come up and fail or struggle…so be a little more open to moving one or more of them to get a ML ready prospect now to go along w/ the previously mentioned vets. That’s all I’m suggesting. Who/what player would that be…I don’t know…good question which I think the Reds should be trying to answer IMO.
By Mike-Dayton
January 5, 2010 4:23 PM | Link to this
On the other hand MAC, we still have Dusty so I am not sure it really matters.
By Mike-Dayton
January 5, 2010 2:23 PM | Link to this
Perhaps MAC but if any player the Reds have floating around in 2010 for Leftfield in (Gomes, Dickerson, Fransisco, Racer X, etc.) would go out and produce 3/4 of what Dunn produced each year from 2003 through July of 2008, the Reds would win a lot more games than they did in 2009.
By MAC
January 5, 2010 12:56 AM | Link to this
Mike, U R right on Dunn; I haven’t given him enough credit. Personally, I liked him a lot, but I wouldn’t consider him clutch AB. There were numerous times when he’d K when they only needed a fly ball or ground ball to score a runner. Likewise, IMO he hit a lot of his HRs in games that were lopsided 1 way or the other…many times they were meaningless HRs. Most importantly, he didn’t seem to make the players around him better? 100, 100 & 40 4 yrs in a row is good, but last yr he showed the ability to hit the ball the other way, be a better 2 strike hitter and a more complete player & that’s what I was getting at. The Reds have produced far too few of those over the last 10-20 yrs so why R so many fans buying the company line thinking “all our young talent” is going to make all the difference in the near future?? It just hasn’t been the case in Cincy & I don’t see it being any different in the near future either. IMO, use 1 or 2 of the young guys to get a MORE COMPLETE player now while the pitching is ample & Rolen, Phillips & Votto R still producing. Just my opinion.
By Jeff
January 4, 2010 12:16 AM | Link to this
Yep, you’re right. We were both wrong. Glad we’re straight on this.
By Mike-Dayton
January 3, 2010 8:03 PM | Link to this
Actually Jeff you can’t do research correctly either to make a point … your data is also wrong … Dunn had 8 errors in the outfield and 8 errors at 1B … I counted his 8 in the outfield twice as the reference book listed totals for outfield and then broke them down by outfield position. He also had 8 errors at 1B. So he had 16 errors - which is still not any good.
By Jeff
January 3, 2010 1:49 PM | Link to this
Uhmm, Dunn had 8 errors in ’09, not 24. I wish folks would stop changing facts to make a point.
By Mike-Dayton
January 2, 2010 7:30 PM | Link to this
Did someone really write that “Dunn’s only real good/complete year was last year”? I must have missed something then when Dunn was averaging 40/100/100/100 for the Reds from 2004-2008 (through July when he was traded) … Dunn hit .267 last year which is a little higher than usual (he hit .264 in ‘07 and .265 in ‘04) … he also made 24 errors in ‘09 which is about usual. In 2009, his home runs and runs scored were down and he did not have a career high in any offensive category. To not like Dunn is one thing but to write that he has only had one real good/complete year and that it was last year is nonsense.
By Slats
January 2, 2010 12:34 PM | Link to this
The reason why the Reds should trade Harang, Arroyo, Cordero and Rolen is pretty simple: by the time the Reds are playing meaningful games in August, those guys will have either moved on via free agency or will have retired. It’s time for Reds management and fans to accept the fact that this club is nowhere near being competitive in the NL Central. If they finish fourth in ‘10, they overachieve. Why keep those big contracts on the books when having the players on your roster would only mean the difference between sixth place and fourth place? No one really cares about even second place, unless it gets you a wild card. 20 years from now, no one will remember or care that the Reds finished fourth, fifth or sixth in 2010.
By Mike-Cinci
December 31, 2009 5:34 PM | Link to this
I like Gomes but I think we tend to over rate him based on the other Reds outfielders who are not exactly anything close to being average. We will see what Gomes can get on the free agent market which I don’t think will be much. He is likely back with the Reds unless the Red don’t want him. Francisco could be a fine player but he looks to have big strike out swing. If he cuts it down a bit he may surprise. He is a left fielder or nothing. Who knows about Bruce and Stubbs?We will find out this year. Dickerson is an OK backup and will get about 200 AB’s in a reserve role…maybe more if Bruce and Stubbs stink it up. The team could be better than expected if Bailey and Cueto continue to improve and Harang and Arroyo have something left. Having all succeed is probably asking(hoping)for too much.
By Believe It Or Not
December 31, 2009 1:38 PM | Link to this
I’m in agreement with RC’s final three sentences, especially; however, I, also, think Juan exhibits a much better awareness of the strike zone than did WP-and he makes much better, and more consistant contact. In fact, I predict stardom for this young man, at the plate. Anyone who can hit, can be hidden defensively, as per, the continuing offensive force in Left field for the Yankees,J. Damon. I believe Mac is correct in the signing of Gomes—Reds need a ‘force’, a battler, a threat. Gomes is the best option in that regard; and he gives insurance for right field, if Bruce doesn’t respond. Should Juan Francisco, and others, prove to be a year away—it’s Gomes, already proven stats, to the rescue.One caution I always have about minor league stats, is that they don’t always hold true. Last years example of Stubbs for example: He demonstrated more power, more speed,with the Reds than at the minor leagues.But, then again, seems less agressive in CF, than I would imagine him being at AAA.I believe, defensively, Chris Dickerson is our best centerfielder-he’s more agressive,and has better range{because of that agressiveness} and a better arm, though injury-prone. Past isn’t always accurate with one’s future,or with what is in the now. Go Mac! Go RC! Go Reds!
By RC
December 31, 2009 12:06 PM | Link to this
Well, Juan Francisco has some Pena-esque strikeout numbers behind him in the minors (to be fair, he seems to be trending better in that regard as he goes). I think he’s just the kind of free-swinger who’s likely to have the same kind of issues with big-league pitching as Jay Bruce has had so far. And like Pena, his defense leans to the debit side. But hey, he certainly had his moments late last season, and he’s doing well in winter ball, so maybe I should be a little less negative. There’s definitely potential there.
By MAC
December 31, 2009 3:36 AM | Link to this
Reds have enough $$ to sign Gomes; they want to leave LF open for a young guy and they know most Reds fans have bought into that idea no matter how AAA it is! Pt. is Gomes could play 1st against a tough LHP to spell Votto on occassion and God Knows Bruce will need to sit on occassion to get his ego/strike zone back inside his head. Gomes is NOT for LF alone; they need his stick, his hustle & his ML attitude - leadership! Remember JG is a young player himself; he could very easily be a part of their future. More importantly, hHe’s proved he can play @ the ML level; many of the Reds young players HAVE NOT and that’s the MAJOR PT more fans should get in their heads!!!
By Coach
December 30, 2009 2:39 PM | Link to this
How does one compare Juan to Willy Mo? Juan has much better bat control than does Willy Mo. Word has it, that Willy Mo had no control over his stick off the field, either.
By Betting Dangerously
December 30, 2009 12:20 PM | Link to this
Wow. That’s climbing out on a limb!
By RC
December 29, 2009 2:25 PM | Link to this
For my money, Harang/Arroyo/Cordero are ALL on the market for the “right offer” - the kind of “right offer” that we’re exceedingly unlikely to get. I don’t sell low on any of them at present, and I fully expect all three to still be Reds on opening day. And while I fear that Juan Francisco is Wily Mo Pena II, he probably should get every chance to play in LF this Spring.
By Oden
December 29, 2009 1:10 PM | Link to this
Anyone else think the Reds would be best served by trying Micah Owings in left? He could probably outhit any other candidates.
By Decker
December 29, 2009 12:08 PM | Link to this
From your lips to Jocketty’s ears, Hal. Harang has been snake-bit the last two years. It would be nice to see Dusty try and shuffle things to change Aaron’s luck. I remember an idea Harang floated a while ago about extending the height of the walls at GABP. It still sounds like a good idea to me. They built those fences for Dunn and Griff and they don’t seem to be doing the current team any favors.
By michael
December 29, 2009 9:50 AM | Link to this
Harang is probably still the number one guy, and he has been a great Red, and a great member of our community for a lot of years. Would hate to see him go.
By Worn Cleat
December 29, 2009 8:39 AM | Link to this
WHY? WHY you ask? That’s real easy, also. The Reds don’t have the money to go get a great LFer! Duh. Come on MAN, yourself.Play what we have.See how easy that is?
By MAC
December 29, 2009 1:29 AM | Link to this
Kearns & Dunn flew thru Reds minor league system; they earned their ML promotion. However, Kearns’ best years (avg.) R behind him already & Dunn’s only real good-complete yr was last year. Bruce hasn’t earned his spot in RF, yet everyone treats him like an untouchable. He had a pretty good 1st 2 weeks; everything after that has been a struggle. Dickerson and Stubbs haven’t proved anything either except they R very avg AB. Now, everyone wants to GIFT Heisey, Francisco or Frazier LF?? Heisey is the only 1 who’s had a full season @ AAA, and he only hit 280 there. What makes anyone think it will be any higher @ ML level?? Be realistic & study history @ least a little! Reds have enough AAA players who can’t hit w/ 2 strikes or 2 outs or get a bunt down in a key siutation or just put the ball in play on the backside so a runner can move over or score from 3rd. Why do so many want another NOT READY FOR PRIME TIME young guy in LF who will struggle and his trade stock will plummet?? Gomes needs to be resigned; he’s proved he can produce! Willie T needs to be cut or traded even if Reds have to pay most of his salary & or add a player to sweeten the deal. That still gives a young guy a chance to make the team out of ST. Come ON MAN!
By Worn Cleat
December 29, 2009 12:31 AM | Link to this
It is correct that the Reds DO NOT need a left fielder; nor do they need to trade any starting pitching. Keep Harang— since the only thing he needs to win, is base hits—therefore, Put the hitting machine{Francisco} in left field. Base hit problem solved! Play Janish. Bat him 8th and then, watch his glove save runs! Dickerson/Stubbs alternate in center. Bruce in RF. The lineup is real easy for those who like to make it real hard. The key will be whether Baker has enough foresight to create the competition in centerfield that he needs to create! The first two spots in the order need to have speed and make things happen with their at bats-bunts,hit the other way, take walks,then steal bases.
By cory r
December 28, 2009 11:18 PM | Link to this
cant win under the current system—we need a left fielder—how would bay fit? need a pitcher—how would marquis have fit? no effort by management to improve—again no crowds this season—the park will be empty again—-harang?? agree move him down in rotation and he will probably win 12 games but at his price tag thats not enough
By David
December 28, 2009 7:59 PM | Link to this
I have to agree with wordman. Somebody has to bat 8th might as well be one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball in janish. The outfield is actually set already with in-house players. Bruce in RF, Stubbs in CF, Gomes/Fransisco in LF, with Dickerson rotating to give players days off. I agree with the idea of keeping harang but not always having him face the other teams #1, sure start him on opening day, but other than that keep him 2 or 3.
By gene_o75
December 28, 2009 3:56 PM | Link to this
don’t get rid of harang, just get him out of the #1 pitcher spot and his numbers will jump
By MisterRedLegs
December 28, 2009 3:50 PM | Link to this
Trade Harang, I say yeah. I think the Reds can replace his 6 wins a season pretty easily. Only this team would worry about IF we should trade the worst pitcher in the league each of the last TWO years.
By gene_o75
December 28, 2009 2:36 PM | Link to this
sorry about the double post, thought the first one didn’t got through
By gene_o75
December 28, 2009 2:32 PM | Link to this
i got a solution for the left field situation, let taverez earn the center field position and let stubbs and dickerson play in left. all we need to bring in is some veteran back up utility guy.
By gene_o75
December 28, 2009 2:16 PM | Link to this
why not give taverez another shot and put stubbs in left. i bet taverez has got something to prove and will dot well, ot at least better which wouldn’t be hard
By gene_o75
December 28, 2009 2:11 PM | Link to this
i like harang, but i don’t think he should be our top pitcher, bad thing is volquez is gone. maybe cueto or bailey can pick it up during spring and take the top spot.
By Tom
December 28, 2009 2:07 PM | Link to this
The NL knows the Reds have pitching, so let’s go with what we have. Toward the end of July it might be time to make changes.
By Jack
December 28, 2009 12:59 PM | Link to this
Matt..why do the Marlins want to trade Uggla? Not that I really want to trade Harang, but if it brought a shortstop, then I would think about it.
By JR
December 28, 2009 12:40 PM | Link to this
Hal, Happy Holidays…I agree with you about Harang. He’s a horse with a 4.21 ERA who constantly pitches in bad luck. If the Reds are out of the race in July then that is the time to trade veteran pitchers
By Believe It Or Not
December 28, 2009 12:16 PM | Link to this
It is correct that the Reds DO NOT need a left fielder; nor do they need to trade any starting pitching.Play Janish. Bat him 8th or 9th, and then…Play Ball!
By Wordman
December 28, 2009 9:03 AM | Link to this
Why does everyone think the Reds need a LF? You HAVE to get Juan Francisco’s bat into the lineup and it won’t be at 3B or 1B. So it is Francisco in Left, Stubbs in Center and Bruce in RF. Shortstop is the only weakness, but a great glove is also worth something … and someone has to bat 8th.
By Dave
December 28, 2009 7:46 AM | Link to this
Hal. This is your ele buddy Dave. There is a box next to each of these postings titled Report abuse. I felt like clicking on the majority of these boxes because it is abuse for these people to even think that the Reds will be contenders next season!
By MAC
December 28, 2009 12:14 AM | Link to this
Good to hear from U Hal. IMO, Reds would have to consider any offer for Harang. Most likely they’ll start the season w/ him and hope for the best. IMO they’ll become sellers in June or July; they seem to be focusing on 2011 when all the AAA prospects R likely to be ready?
By nullmongoose
December 27, 2009 11:30 PM | Link to this
The Reds played their best ball at the end of the season. Dusty should look who was in the lineup during sept. Oct. Trade the rest
By Matt
December 27, 2009 10:31 PM | Link to this
I have a left fielder—-Marlon Byrd. Sign him,make that trade,and we’re set!
By Matt
December 27, 2009 9:45 PM | Link to this
Hal: For once,I disagree with you on a baseball level.Harang needs to go.It’s not just his record,but his ERA. If we can get SOMETHING for him,so much the better.IF they can keep Cordero,great.IF they don’t,who sets up Masett? Keep Arroyo.I say,trade Harang to Florida for Dan Uggla.The payroll goes down,even with arbitration for Uggla,and the team improves.BP goes to short. Then the only problem is LF. Gomes? Pena? Reed Johnsson?Cust? Thames? Another trade? I want discussion on this.
By nostradamus4192
December 27, 2009 9:30 PM | Link to this
Hopefully Jockety has the same mindset as you Hal. Harrang hasn’t pitched up to his contract the past two years, but he’s pitched better than the W’s and L’s have indicated. He’d be a .500 pitcher the past two years with some run support. He’s always been a 200 inning guy, which are hard to come by these days. He and Arroyo give them a chance to win just about every night,and keep the pen from getting burnt out over a 162 games. His value has never been lower than it is now, so it makes no sense to try and trade him now. They wouldn’t fetch much in return and would probaby have to pay some of his salary.
By Mike-Cinci
December 27, 2009 9:12 PM | Link to this
Hal loves Harang and he will defend him to the end although his results have been so-so over the last couple of years. Harang earned Hal’s love by being the best Reds picher of this century and being a stand up guy. Hal is right, the Reds should keep Harang unless they get a great offer for his services. Unfortunately they won’t get that offer probably because Aaron looks to be on the downside. I’d love to see Harang have a great year in 2010 for the Reds and for Aaron. Harang might go in a salary dump for a semi-prospect or two. Who do you think wants to pay Harang $12 million a year? So far only the Reds! Until the Reds develop a productive farm system they will be the Pirates/Royals of the “tri-state”. Building a winning team does not start with Boone, Miley, Narron or Baker but it starts with the front office and scouts with an eye for talent. If they do their job the Reds might be on to something. If not we will be signing Coco Crisp is 3 years. As some baseball genius said, “pitching wins, chicks love the long ball.”
By Doc Jim
December 27, 2009 8:01 PM | Link to this
They can get similar production for much less money than Harang. Their management on the field (Dusty) is abysmal. No major free agents would come here, even if the Reds were willing to shell out the money. The Reds simply cannot compete with large marked, world series (serious) teams.
By Sand Willie
December 27, 2009 7:57 PM | Link to this
As usual Hal is right on the mark. It would be great to get another bat but not at the expense giving up a great young talent. I can only hope that Jockety is a wise as Hal. Stand pat. It a great deal comes along grab it but if not let dance with what we’ve got.
By Brian
December 27, 2009 7:14 PM | Link to this
It is good to hear from you Hal. Merry Christmas. Thanks for making me laugh, saying you weren’t a big (or small) fan of Jim Bowden. Harang is a horse, and in that ballpark “major” league pitchers are very needed. If they move him, they’d better have solid pitching in replacement.
By ChicagoM
December 27, 2009 6:24 PM | Link to this
Hal, You’re one of the best, but your point is only half made. Not only will starting pitching take the Reds as far as they’ll go in 2010, but if you do need to shave salary/restock the farm system, why feel compelled to do it during the winter? It’s a long season. Injuries happen, pennant fever happens (often in some unlikely places), and at some point come June or July I promise you; someone, somewhere will step forward with both cash and prospects in hand and be willing to overpay for a proven veteran arm.
By Pete
December 27, 2009 6:22 PM | Link to this
Doesn’t matter who the Reds keep, get rid of, etc. They won’t compete or finish @ or above .500 again in 2010. Sorry boys & girls — just bein’ realistic.
By econprof
December 27, 2009 4:46 PM | Link to this
Good to hear from you, Hal. I agree r.e. Harang. It is a shame that Bowden never paid attention to the sign on his wall. To support his decisions, his sign should have read “5 Tool Outfield Prospect”.
By Redfuture
December 27, 2009 2:43 PM | Link to this
Good to hear from you Hal! You got it exactly right. I’m willing to go into the season with this team, after all they went 27-13 down the stretch. That stretch happened because Taveras was out of CF, Rolen was at 3B and Homer asserted himself. It would have been better with Harang healthy. I’d like to see Harang pitch a season versus the other team’s #2 or #3 pitchers for a change. They need to let Homer go against the #1 pitchers, he has the stuff to matchup with the top guys.
By Mark
December 27, 2009 2:42 PM | Link to this
Hal, You seem to be the ONLY voice of reason left in the Cincinnati world
By iball
December 27, 2009 2:24 PM | Link to this
The Reds should trade evaryone they can except for Baile, Volquez, Cueto and Votto. They have no chance to win anyway. Your best bet is to get alot of young players and hope they all have breakout seasons. The Reds could also save money this way and maybe add one proven veteran like Jason Bay.
By Slick Rick
December 27, 2009 2:09 PM | Link to this
I didn’t know the Reds hired “The American Dream” to be their new manager. Maybe when he argues with the ump, he can use the bionic elbow to get his point across. But I digress. Great column Hal; the Reds shouldn’t even give one thought to trading starting or relief pitching.
By brunnegd
December 27, 2009 1:56 PM | Link to this
Can’t Dusty find a washed up pitcher from Chicago that the Reds could sign?
By Hal Fan
December 27, 2009 1:51 PM | Link to this
Hal, great stuff as usual. Just wanted to point out that you wrote Rhodes instead of Baker after Dusty. Best!
By FLRed
December 27, 2009 1:09 PM | Link to this
AMEN!