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Dayton Daily News education reporter Scott Elliott writes about schools, kids, teaching and learning.
Home > Blogs > Get on the Bus > Archives > 2005 > November > 28 > Entry
Shooting for Harvard
We had an interesting Thanksgiving discussion at my house this week about college, and it was very timely, as high school seniors will begin to make their college choices soon. The question was: how important is it to shoot for Harvard? In my view, it’s more important than you think.
The conflict is this — if a kid has the qualifications to attend an elite school, should they always try to go there? Or when does it make sense to choose a lesser school? How much should money be a factor, or the student’s desire (or the parent’s desire) that they stay close to home?
I think this is a big issue in Dayton. All the time, I see kids with the grades, scores and activities to get into top schools who instead choose to stay home and attend the University of Dayton or Ohio State or other close by options. Often this is because they are afraid to leave home or don’t think they can afford other choices.
Let me start off by saying that the local and state universities here are good options. That is not my point at all. I am a UD grad, for instance, and got a great education there. I recommend the school all the time.
But last year, I had the good fortune to be one of just 12 American and six international journalists selected to participate in a year of sabbatical study at the University of Michigan through the Knight Wallace program.
I’ve mentioned here before how this experience influenced my thinking on the value of foreign language instruction and on raising self-confident girls.
It also changed my thinking about the value of an education at an elite school. I used to think it couldn’t make that much difference. No matter where you went, if you worked hard and learned what you were taught, I figured a smart kid would do well. But then I took a year’s worth of classes at Michigan.
Here’s the difference. In a typical UD class, my professor was a true expert in the subject with solid credentials and generally used the best course texts and materials available. At Michigan, It was amazing how often my professors had WORLD CLASS reputations and how often they had AUTHORED the top texts we were using.
I also met a lot of top journalists through the program. It was interesting to me how much it mattered to them where you went to school. At the elite newspapers, an incredible number of journalists went to a small handful of elite schools. And they would noticeably perk up when they discovered they were talking to someone who went to, say, Harvard or Yale. This is true in many fields.
That’s what those top schools offer. It’s both a quality of instruction that is simply on another plane when compared to other good colleges and the connection to other elite students who will go on to make their marks in the world. Your college friendships will help you even more down the line if you went to an elite school.
So that’s why I say if you can go to a top school, you should do whatever it takes to make it happen.
Permalink | Comments (7) | Categories: Colleges and Universities
Comments
By Mary
November 29, 2005 5:32 PM | Link to this
No, no one in my family applied to an “elite school” and got turned down. I got my degree in aerospace engineering from a “prominent” engineering school (public university)probably before you were born. (What did the Harvard president say about women in science and engineering?). My son got his bachelors degree from a state university six days after he received his high school diploma. You should research the newspaper “stacks” in the fancy Harvard library you mentioned and look for the articles that came out at the time of the Michigan case. As I recall, there was a USA Today article that provided the details of the Michigan points system for admission. It clearly showed 1600 SAT scores got lower admission points than athletes - although the focus in the news and the courts was simply on points for minority status. The way I look at it, a system with priorties like that deserves as much, if not more, debate than the minority points issue. It seems to happen at a lot of elite and not so elite colleges.By UDHarvardPaige
November 29, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this
Mary, I think that you missed the point of my piece. Who said students who enter elite universities “play a game?� I think that is putting down those who have worked hard to attend those schools. The American system of Higher Education is premised upon access to higher education for all individuals. Colleges and universities educate individuals for the good of American society. No matter where one goes to school they will make a difference some where, some how. Some of my colleagues at Harvard became ministers or work for non-profit organizations. I work in higher education and previously worked in the non-profit world. Are you saying that I am all about myself? Just because you attend an elite school does not mean that you have an increased sense of self-worth or are materialistic. I think that any person, regardless of where they go to school can have an increased sense of self worth or can be materialistic. In regard to legacy admissions, they happen at all universities and colleges regardless of whether they are elite or not. The Commander-in-Chief that you refer to is fiction, a television show and is not reality. In reality, do you see President Bush actually taking the time to ask Brown to admit a student with poor grades (even though he was not the most stellar student himself and attended Yale)? Actually, in regard to the Michigan case you brought up, you need to get the facts straight. The undergraduate admissions case, Gratz v. Bollinger, stated that Michigan could not automatically assign points to underrepresented students (20 on a 150 pt scale, with 100 needed for admission). In the Michigan Law School case, Gutter v. Bollinger, the Court upheld the universities’ affirmative action policies. To be honest, I don’t know what you are getting at in your posts. Wouldn’t you want your children to attend an elite school if they were accepted? Sounds like someone in your family tried to get into an elite school and was turned down.By Mary
November 28, 2005 8:31 PM | Link to this
I appreciate “UDHarvardPaige’s” comments and candor. However, the larger issue to me is not what this means for the individual students and their advantages in life, but what are the implications for the rest of us and society. A network or club of elitism is perpetuated to advantage those who play a game. What is in it for the rest of us? So far, all I hear is me-me-me and us-us-us (as in another clique). So the clique goes on to use its power and network to inflate its sense of self-worth and materialism. What is society getting back in return? I just saw the replay of last week’s Commander-in-chief where the president used her power to get a student with poor grades into Brown. I also read the book “Rule by Secrecy” in which too much power is vested in tight circles such as our elite schools. The Supreme Court case a few years ago regarding affirmative action failed to bring to the public’s attention that athletics and extracurricular brought more points for admission than a perfect SAT score at the University of Michigan. No wonder we have not figured things out through our education system. We rate game playing higher than some established indicators of intelligence.By UDHarvardPaige
November 28, 2005 2:13 PM | Link to this
I bring a unique perspective to this discussion because I completed my undergraduate degree at University of Dayton and received my Masters from Harvard. I will first frame my comments by saying that UD was a great experience all the way around for me; I grew as a person as well as academically. My professors encouraged me to take graduate courses, attend department workshops, and to apply to top graduate programs. I applied to three graduate programs (Harvard, Yale, and Duke) and was accepted at all three. I chose Harvard because of the number of researchers in my field who literally wrote the books that redefined my field of study. The library system at Harvard is unparalleled along with the opportunity to attend lectures, exhibits, and seminars. The graduate schools at Harvard are quite different from Harvard College, because their financial aid packages do not always measure up (as I well know). However, the loans that I took will repay themselves eventually. Students from Dayton who argue that they cannot afford elite institutions should reconsider. For example, most Ivy League schools and many elite institutions offer financial aid packages solely on need-based aid. In 2004, Harvard College announced that students who had been accepted and whose families made under $40,000 per year could attend cost free. Also, students whose families made between $40,000 and $60,000 could attend Harvard for very minimal fees. While cost is a serious concern for most families, most elite schools have the endowments to offer excellent aid packages to students. Granted, Harvard and other elite schools are far from perfect. As Scott pointed out, the professors at elite institutions are known for their outstanding research. I would argue that being the top researcher in a field does not mean a person can teach and visa versa. At Harvard, many of the world famous researchers I had were the worst lecturers or seminar facilitators. Some faculty members at Harvard will not give undergraduates the time of day and they will only give graduate students 10 minute appointments. Often professors at Harvard will only teach on class a semester and go on sabbatical frequently. At UD, the quality of instruction, for the most part, was great. UD hires many of its faculty from elite institutions who bring along their elite academic ideals. The Honors Program at UD is also outstanding and provides great opportunities for those involved. While UD opened many doors for me, it cannot (not many can) compare to the opportunities that Harvard has offered me. I did not realize it until I completed my degree, but I will always be a part of the Harvard network; a network that expands to the ends of the earth. The college experience, ultimately, boils down to what people take advantage of while they are in school. I took advantage of many academic opportunities while at UD and they helped me to get into Harvard. Students with the grades and extra-curricular activities to apply to elite schools should apply. If you want to move back to Dayton once you graduate, go ahead. Students should not be afraid to go outside the box and to apply to elite schools. A round trip plane ticket from Dayton to Boston is about $200 and only about a three hour trip. Student loans will eventually be repaid. Being able to put Harvard on your resume is priceless.By superdestroyer
November 28, 2005 1:37 PM | Link to this
According to the Princeton Review, the top major at UMich is economics. I wonder how many kids started out in engineering or a hard science but ended up in economics. For many of those kids being a UMich grad was more important than actually finishing a degree program. Is that what you are encouraging?By Mary
November 28, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this
I agree on the importance of foreign languages for American students. However, I disagree on the importance of name brand colleges. It is a continuation of the style over substance, we’re number one orientation, and marketing hype that has too much influence in our culture already, including education. I have read various articles that bring into question the importance of name brand schools from a career and quality of education viewpoint, as well as the politics of school ratings. Besides, the prestigious schools seem to be more liberal arts oriented than science and engineering where some of the biggest needs are. Also, affordability and going into debt for life is a big enough problem for other colleges as it is. I think some of the name brand colleges recruit students to apply so they can turn them down and then brag about their selectivity and rejection rate. We ignored the name brand college solicitations at our house. We did not want to play in a stacked game with legacy applicants and fanatical resume builders for an education in a snobby, social climbing atmosphere. The book “Beer and Circus” talks about the different types of reasons people go to college. I think the breakdown of different types is germane to this discussion. Why is the person going to college - for career, for social reasons, etc?By Terri
November 28, 2005 9:13 AM | Link to this
I think it should be every student’s goal to get into the elite colleges and universities. Even if they don’t get in or find they can’t afford it the hard work they expended will still pay off in the good habits they cultivated and the learning they gained.