By Mary

August 23, 2007 7:42 AM | Link to this

Lou, I am happy to let you know what my retirement is - less than $33,000 gross, which is $671 less than the average beginning teacher’s salary in Ohio, according to Sunday’s Dayton Daily News. Contrary to some civilian myths, the pay is also taxed and we do pay social security while on active duty. Some disabilites, such as arms and legs blown off, do allow some tax exemptions. Contrary to another civilian myth, we are not exempt from property taxes. My retirement pay is influenced by when I joined (prior to 1980), my rank as an officer, my years of service, etc. I think the retirement system has been changed twice by Congress to make this less generous for later military retirees. I also contribute a small amount to a health care plan that was promised for free. I really do not use it very much, because I think our nation’s medical care systems are not really wellness oriented. I agree with you about the importance of good food. That is where most of my retirement pay goes and a lot of my retirement time. Having some discretionary time and not working is the best part of all. As a famous old quote by someone whose name I cannot remember sort of goes “Your time is your most valuable coin. Do not let someone else spend it for you.” Most other professionals would love the three months off system to recharge. Teachers should value their time off as part of their compensation.

By Eric

August 22, 2007 10:24 PM | Link to this

Do high school seniors learn to judge candidates by their commitment to keeping their oath of office? Citizens ought to vote down candidates for board of ed who misrepresent their real agendas—are our high school graduates well prepared? Should the state endorse a model lesson plan on “how to cast an informed ballot for board member?” How do we maintain integrity during campaigns, or must we rely on journalists and editorial boards for vetting? Here’s the DDN’s take on the invisible new clothes Mary and her running mates were stitching for the gullible; decide for yourselves if graduates from your own district are prepared to safeguard American democracy: “You might not think that these differences would foster great personal animosity. But some of these people have been dealing with each other for some time, … Nothing about the way the district is being run merits this kind of fussing.”

By joe mamma

August 22, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

lou, I hope that was a joke….

By lou

August 22, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

Joe Mamma, maybe if people could cook instead of eating out and frozen foods our society would not be so unhealthy.

By joe momma

August 22, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

lou, I never stated that my product was more important than yours. Usually its teachers that insist their product is more important than the average working stiff. I merely stated that my wage is determined by the market place. Yours in large part is not, because your union contract mostly removes any type of market influence. If home-economics is viewed to have the same importance as math, english, science, history and economics/civics we’re in trouble.

By Jim

August 22, 2007 10:09 AM | Link to this

Between this and the AP testing discussion the real attitudes have come out. As a teacher was asked early in this blog thread, perhaps Mary wants to tell us about her income and benefits as a retired? military person the way she asked Barb to do? Talk about working hard-military. And in engineering? And I’ve loved the points where engineering is for higher IQ people. What a laugh. I’ve heard of “engineers” who became teachers to “show” how it is done. They don’t last; they don’t have what it takes. Anyhow there are many people who try to get on school boards to push their own person misagenda. I recall someone talking about a small ineffective school district with a board member who has a GED. A board member has responsibilities and needs to have understanding. Some of the exgovernment/military types think they know everything but really don’t understand working with people and especially working with kids.

By lou

August 22, 2007 6:33 AM | Link to this

It is amazing to me that all these people are complaining about what a teacher makes. What about the non-building level admins. Not one person has brought up that there are many people sitting downtown, in made up good ole boy jobs, making 2x’s what a classroom teacher makes. Kids First

By please...

August 22, 2007 1:51 AM | Link to this

Mary, I appreciate your interest in education. I also appreciate your opinions. It is just hard to stomach your bitty harsh comments against educators, especially those of the Dayton Public Schools. . While debate is important part of this forum, is it possible that it be done in a more kind way? Barb has expressed a very valid point of view, one which is common among the ranks of many teachers, not just those in the Dayton Public Schools. I don�t get a sense that pity is what is being asked for by the teachers here, rather a consciousness that our work is more than just a score published in the DDN�.t is the summative mass of each of the things Barb and other teachers mentioned here.

By Mary

August 21, 2007 10:21 PM | Link to this

Dave, just be thankful foot and mouth disease is not contagious through the internet. At least for now, I feel fine. What about you?

By lou

August 21, 2007 4:43 PM | Link to this

Joe Mamma, I don’t think I am more important than any other teacher. I also don’t think that math and science are more important. To be a truely educated person you need some knowledge in all areas. It is just as important to know how to cook dinner for your family as it is knowing the chemical reaction that takes place when you cook. You still did not answer the question how is your product more important than mine? After all, my product could be the next you. I am no more important to the future than any other teacher. In my class science is more important, but to the child they are all important.

By Dave

August 21, 2007 4:36 PM | Link to this

Mary, the only one mis-reading your posts is YOU. Calling everyone else “whiners” will not remove your foot from your mouth.

By Mary

August 21, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

Eric, it is your nature to focus on a thread while those around you are stitching a cloak.

By joe mamma

August 21, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

lou, If you are a math or science teacher you would make more than a (for example) Home-Ec teacher without a union. In a free market value depends on what the school was looking for in a teacher, your performance and the supply of candidates. Right now you might be a more valuable employee than the teacher in the classroom next to you, but you’ll never know because your union contract mandates every one to be evaluated on the same pay scale based on seniority and education. They do not pay for performance and instructors that are on the lower end of the performance scale cannot be easily replaced with better teachers.

By Eric

August 21, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this

Since this is now a “Mary” thread, I’d like to know if readers feel she was poorly treated by our high school students. You can google “Idiot candidates endorsed by KBAPAC” or go right to http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/375401 Does the available evidence suggest our high school is preparing students for informed citizenship?

By joe mamma

August 21, 2007 8:13 AM | Link to this

My wife is high school teacher with a masters degree. She makes quite good money and rarely complains about her compensation. Not to mention the health benefits are better than mine. The pension is better than mine. Plus she doesn’t pay into the black hole that is social security. She gets to enjoy most of her summer off and starts back about a week prior to the start of school. She might pull together a few things during the middle of summer, but not much. Sure she has some grading some evenings, but I bring home work fairly often too. I think that’s fairly common now among a lot of white collar workers. So all in all….she puts in less hours over a full year and definitely makes more if you looked at it on an hourly basis.

By Mary

August 21, 2007 7:59 AM | Link to this

To the group of pitiful, whiners who are misreading my comments, but teaching kids whatever, a turn about is fair play. If teaching is so underappreciated, so underpaid and so tough, why don’t you give up your day job and apply for engineering school? You could probably even work on your degree fulltime in the summer while keeping your day job. Why do you suppose there are many more teachers than engineers, particularly PhDs in engineering versus education? As far as my hating teachers and never working in the schools, you are wrong on both accounts. I come from a family of teachers,including a grandmother and five sisters who have majored and worked in the education field. I was the “brainy one” who went to engineering school. My sisters are also very smart, but likely did not have the scores to get into an engineering school or the desire. Their standard of living is as good or better than mine. While retired from enineering,I subbed for a year and a half on short notice every day after the school district advertised they needed subs. Then I decided to drive my 14 year old to college classes everyday, because school districts are more accommodating to gifted athletes than gifted students, as if you don’t know that.

By lou

August 20, 2007 9:19 PM | Link to this

Joe Mamma, so what you are saying is that if I didn’t have a union I would be making around $200,000.00/yr. I am highly qualified in Earth Science, Physical Science, Biology, Algebra, and Geometry. I also have a special education license. Science, math, and special education teaching areas are considered teacher shortage areas in every state. The market is in desperate need for these teachers. I can justify I deserve more because of the product I make. It is just too bad that children are not valued by our society. In other cultures teachers get respect for the simple fact they are teachers. Not here, but that’s OK, I’ll be there tomorrow, and the next, and the next. My true pay comes when the student comes back just to say hi, and then says thank you, you made a difference. Does your job pay that well? But in the mean time I still have to raise my children, just like you.

By Laura

August 20, 2007 7:15 PM | Link to this

Mary, your credibility is wearing thin. Do you think that you’ve already used all the arguments you can against sports and athletes so you are going to go for the jugular of teachers?

By Barb

August 20, 2007 5:37 PM | Link to this

Gee Mary all I was going to say was compared to athletes.

By deedee

August 20, 2007 3:37 PM | Link to this

Wow, Mary, you sure hold a lot of anger and resentment toward teachers. What happened, you couldn’t pass the Praxis teacher exam so you became an engineer instead??? Who taught you what you need to know to be where you are today? Instead of spewing hatred, why don’t you come in and volunteer in a Dayton school? You would be surprised at the large number of truly dedicated, intelligent, hard working, competent professionals you would see in any of the schools. Be a part of the solution. All this negativity is bad for your health.

By Jim

August 20, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

I thought that would bait Mary’s real feelings: “…engineers, who have a much harder academic curriculum, start at a similar range.” So she feels teachers are inferior to other professions and shouldn’t really be paid so much except for the those Unions. She’d be surprised to learn that there are those in the teaching profession who have colleges degrees in areas she values that have those rigorous requirements. But it also sounds like the 2 1/2 months of time away from the classroom in normal school district calendars that she objects to. Maybe they can substitute at Walmart as greeters in between college classes? “They (engineers) do not have strong unions…” she says as though OEA and AFT are strong. If they were this Ohio mess would have been shut down and cleaned up 30 years ago with a statewide stoppage to gain for the children and their education what they deserve in funding from the state as well as local property taxes.

By Lou

August 20, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

Mary, I have a degree in science and a masters in education/science. I have taken physics, chemistry/organic and nonorganic, biology, earth science, algebra, trig, calc., stats., and so on. Are they not the same courses you took. and I don’t knoe of any engineer that starts under $40,000.00/per year. Remember, teaches are now required a masters degree, so that starting salary is a masters not a BA or BS. You also said an engineer is highly specialized and teachers aren’t, what planet do you live on?

By Caroline

August 20, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this

Mary, You’re kidding me!! I know many engineers, and they certainly don’t have it as rough as you suggest. Plus, just look at the need for math and science teachers. There is a shortage of them all over the country. Why is that???? It is because those majoring in math or science fields make a whole lot more money not teaching. Plus, they get a whole lot more respect than teachers, because of attitudes like yours. The stress level of teachers—esp. in inner city schools is incredible. It is much different than working in an office. I know—I’ve worked in both places.

By joe mamma

August 20, 2007 9:27 AM | Link to this

In the private sector if a company fails or “project” fails people often get laid off or fired. I’m not saying that doesn’t happen with schools, but it happens A LOT more in the private sector than in teaching. Also…I can justify my salary because its determined by the market place. Teachers are paid based on the result of union negotiations using seniority and education hours as a basis not how good they are or what the demand is for their specialty.

By Joe Mamma

August 20, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this

lou, In the private sector if a company fails or “project” fails people often get laid off or fired. I’m not saying that doesn’t happen with schools, but it happens A LOT more in the private sector than in teaching. Also…I can justify my salary because its determined by the market place. Teachers are paid based on the result of union negotiations using seniority and education hours as a basis not how good they are or what the demand is for their specialty.

By Mary

August 20, 2007 5:55 AM | Link to this

Jim, you shot your credibility in your first sentence so badly, I do not think your comments really deserve a response. What do you teach kids - how to be ignorant and misleading. There are not too many engineers who would start at $80,000 - possibly in a high demand/low supply engineering field, and much more likely with a specialized masters degree or PhD. If you equate that study discipline and difficulty to earning degrees in the education field, then we might have some arguments. I will agree that actually working in education can also be demanding and difficult. According to an article in yesterday’s Dayton Daily News, the average beginning teacher’s salary in Ohio is $33,671. I am sure many beginning engineers, who have a much harder academic curriculum, start at a similar range, and they do not get three months off and as good health care benefits. They also do not have strong unions, they have to travel a lot, many carry brown bags for their lunch and many are subject to layoffs and moves.

By Laura

August 19, 2007 11:33 PM | Link to this

Will, It seems very simple to say that teachers don’t “have” to do those duties, but if you are a teacher or know one, you should realize that to refuse to do those duties could result in very unpleasant repercussions. I was at a building once that had a certain group of teachers who were in the principal’s favor and they decided what the staff would do. To go against that group would take a very strong individual. Teachers who are new (not a problem now) or don’t handle conflict well feel they have no choice but to go along with what is being “asked”. Mary, even if you knew how much I made, you couldn’t make a reasonable decision because you are not there, in the trenches, so to speak. However, the simple fact that teachers are expected to repeatedly give of their time and own money is wrong. For the person who says, “well, just don’t do it,” can you imagine how you would feel if you walked into your child’s classroom and saw nothing but the furniture, chalkboards and books? Who do you think pays for the posters and decorations you see in the classroom? Who do you think pays for the practice pages your child brings home? Who pays for the supplies when the majority of parents won’t send in the basics such as pencils, paper and crayons? When your first grader comes home excited about having “green eggs and ham” to celebrate Dr. Seuss’s birthday- who do you think paid for it? Admittedly, some districts do get parents to pay for some of these things, but the poorer the district, the more likely it is that the teacher paid for it. When you walked into your child’s first day of school and saw the room all nicely decorated and ready- when do you think the teacher did this? She sure didn’t get paid for the time she spent. When you see the number of teachers who have a master’s degree or have passed the National Teachers Exam- ask who paid for the courses? If you are in Dayton, the teacher did. That wonderful little $250 that I get back from my taxes doesn’t begin to pay for what I spend. And you are correct in one area of my savings. I don’t have to spend money for lunches out because I only have 30 minutes- of which I usually end up getting about 20 minutes by the time I take care of all the little things that come up.

By Jim

August 19, 2007 7:07 PM | Link to this

I don’t know what bug is in Mary’s bonnet but since she claims to be a certified engineer I would think she’d have the common sense to understand that a teacher starting at $28000 per year isn’t the same as an engineer starting at $80000 year. If the 2.5 months off per year bother her, she’s welcome to put in the education coursework and getajob in education. Teachers pay childcare. We wear clothes and have dry cleaning bills. We don’t get to eat meals out like business world folks with their 1 hour lunch at the local restaurant; teachers eat mostly at school with the kids or in the teachers’ work room. Teachers pay healthcare premiums. A friend of ours has much better coverage than we ever did; he delivers propane in a tank trunk. You might remember when Reagan reduced taxes and put a 2% floor, IIRC, on the minimum deductions that can be taken. Teachers who are paying lots for extra materials that taxpayers and superintendents should have been paying for instead of high salaries for their buddies and selves in administration used to be able to take deductions. Only recently was the $250 pittance allowed. People in engineering with work ethics like many teachers have are getting 5 - 10% annual raises. They get paid trips to work out of town. They get great perks. Perhaps Mary can give some of those perks for us and let us be the judge. If I know someone who says they want to go into education now I suggest they look into other fields with much better remuneration characteristics. That is partly because many of the high paid education people are there by the Peter Principle. But Mary needs to get a grip and quit being jealous of overpaid teachers. Try working with 33 kids on a hot day when you can’t call grandma to come sit while you run out to Walmart to get a breather.

By lou

August 19, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this

Mary, our salaries are public record and you may look these up for yourself. As for benifits, I pay more for health insurance than I paid working in the business world. As for 3 months off, teachers do not get holiday pay or vacation pay, we are paid per diem. Now lets compare this to the private work force. My degree is in science and if I were working as an engineer my starting salary would be comparable to what I make now, with 10 years experience. I would have 11 paid holidays, 3 to 5 weeks vacation, and would not be require to take 9 graduate hours every 5 years a my own expense. Now let’s do some math. There are 260 work days a year minus 11 holidays equals 249 days. Now for vacation, lets use 4 weeks, 249 minus 20 equals 229 days. The coure work takes about 30 total days, now were are at 199 days. I am paid for 185 days, but I am at school at least 5 more days, without pay, getting materials ready for the students. The end result, the average professional works about 9 days more than I do at double the pay. Now look at these short days people say we work. Most jobs are 8 hours and they get 1 hour for lunch, I work 7.5 hours with 30 min. lunch. During that 8 hours you are able to go to the bathroom, get a drink of water, and so on. I cannot leave my room from 7:55AM to 2:00 pm. I cannot use the restroom, get a drink, or leave my room for any reason, except during my 30 lunch. Now compensation, you say teachers can get compensation for what they spend. How many professional have to buy their own pens, pencils, and paper. How about all the supplies needed to complete a project. I buy my own science supplies. Now we have to come up with something like $18,000 for our seniors to graduate. If you were to buy this stuff yourself you could also claim it on your taxes, but you are not expected too. Now lets look at the numbers. I work 9 less days, pay for school on my own, and cannot leave for any reason. I make 1/2 what I would make if I did not choose to be a teacher. GM employess make more a year than I do and pay less for better benefits. Now lets compare the products we are responsible for. If a project you are working on fails, you start over,at the companies expense, If mine fails we have lost part of our future.

By DPS teacher

August 19, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this

Planning periods aren’t just used to “plan.” I, and many other teachers, often use this time to counsel a student or to work with a student individually, to tutor, to meet with our colleagues, etc. When that time is placed before or after students arrive or when faculty are performing other duties (I monitor the cafeteria in the mornings) we cannot provide that support to students or other teachers. That’s why the contract calls for planning periods to be “during student contact time.” And to Mary, teachers can deduct $250. A single print cartridge for my work printer costs $75. (Not counting my home printer, because teachers never work from home, of course.) If I bought nothing else, no pencil sharpener, no 3-hole punch, no folders, pencils, construction paper, posters, stencils, tape, hand lotion, or simple rewards, I could buy 3 cartridges per year, allowing me to print 6000 pages. Lucky for me, I teach in a program where class size is limited to only 15 students x 5 periods. That equals 75 kids per day and yields 80 pages per student for the 178 day school year. That’s less than half a page per day. Now half that for a class of 30. That kid would get one page every 4 days. If a student prints a single 5-page essay in my class, they’ve just used up their share for 2 weeks. In a class of 30, that kid gets to print one 5-page essay per month. And that doesn’t count rough drafts(or even the cost of the paper itself.) Now, add back in all those other daily-use items and please tell me what you think the average teacher actually spends per year…personally, I’d say around $750. Lastly, summer “vacation” is a myth. Most teachers spend their summers reviewing and re-designing their curriculum, attending graduate courses (a requirement to keep your job beyond 2 years), workshops, etc. Again, 5 classes x 171 days = 855 hours of content. How much planning time do you think is necessary to support 855 hours of instructional activities? And don’t forget to include at least 5 different teaching methods, all of the State Benchmark (there are 93 of them just for 9th grade Language Arts), all of your Standardized Test Prep. to raise those OGT scores (you wouldn’t want to look like you weren’t doing your job would you!), and to call all of your students’ homes at least once per week.

By Will

August 19, 2007 2:28 AM | Link to this

Teachermom,Barb,Mary You are all correct about teachers. However, this lawsuit has nothing to do with teachers and their sacrifices. It has to do with the union playing political games and using the legal process to run a schmear campaign against DPS. Teachers are not required to do any of the duties they are being asked to do during planning time. If the DEA really wanted to solve the issue it would better educate it’s supposedly loved members better on their contracts. DPS is failing. It cannot succeed until teachers and admin quit doing dumb and petty things like this lawsuit or like the purchase of the Reynolds&Reynolds building.

By teachermom

August 18, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this

This lawsuit may seem frivolous to some, but not to anyone familiar with the abuses that the DPS admin. can dish out. The reason that unions exist is to protect the rights of employees. DPS would like to follow in the pattern of many corporations and dump twice as much work on the educators while they take all the credit and the raises. I can’t believe people aren’t seeing the pattern of corporate greed. It sickens me to watch it flow into our school system. No Child Left Behind and its testing standards will be virtually impossible to reach by 2014.Corporate America is just dying to get its hands on the future and present testing failures. It will create a society of passive employees who will believe minimum wage is all they are worth. Teachers, wake up. Support your unions. Do not sell yourself short of what you are worth. Two years now out of Academic emergency, we get 1% and then no raise this year too. What is wrong with this picture ? Our work conditions, class sizes make our jobs terribly difficult. Don’t give these people an inch, they will take a mile.

By Mary

August 18, 2007 9:50 PM | Link to this

So Barb, do you realize many workers would love to have an option of stretching their salary with three months off. Commuting to work an extra three months and paying childcare expenses, lunches, dry cleaning, meals out,higher health care premiums, etc, is expensive. You get to deduct some of your classroom expenses per IRS rules. Maybe if you provide your annual salary and health care benefits, we would have a better feel for your compensation compared to other workers since you claim to be underpaid. Demonstrate this with some details and let us be the judge

By Barb

August 18, 2007 6:01 PM | Link to this

I hope people do not get the wrong idea about DPS teachers. Many of us wish this did not have to happen this way. Unfortunately our hands are tied as to what is being done to our students and this is the process in place we must use. If you walked into any DPS school you would see more than half of the staff working over time, on their own, at home and not worrying about a contract but the recent changes have left us little choice. I do not think anyone who is not in these schools everyday understands how disheartening it is to know many of us are doing all we can and then to have so many people comment that teachers are not doing a better job. When you know you have poured your heart and soul into something and see that the scores do not reflect what you are doing is very discouraging. It is so discouraging that the Administration refuses to listen to the people on the front lines and instead listen to so called experts. Most teachers will invite you into their classrooms on a regular basis. We love the help and it is so good for others to walk a mile in our shoes. It is Sat. I spent 2 hours last night grading the district required math practice. I still have the reading to grade. Yes our Intervention specialists could grade them but I chose to do it myself to better understand my students abilities. I spent this afternoon working on a weekly newsletter for parents knowing that half of them will probably not read it. This evening I will spend a couple of hours preparing Lessons for the upcoming week to keep my students engaged. I will spend next week with sweat running down my back after I have carried in cases of water and bags of ice to make sure my students do not get dehydrated. The coolest my room has been so far is 83 degrees. I have spent over $200 this month making sure I have a classroom that is enticing to the children, furnishing school supplies to those who do not have them, buying water, and snacks as rewards. I went to work everyday the week before school started to get my classroom ready because I knew I would be in constant meetings and not have time to prepare. I am not doing anything different than a majority of teachers in my building. And I am in one of the most underpaid jobs in the nation. Unlike most people’s belief I do not get paid vacations but I am allowed to stretch my 9 month check over 12 months so I have a check every two weeks but my salary does not change. Contrary to popular belief my day does not end with the ringing of the school bell. I like many people continue to do this because from the bottom of our heart we feel we are making a difference to children who need the help. We sure could use your help out there.

By Will

August 18, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

This is a frivoulous lawsuit and it is an example how bad, inept teachers (many who are staunch union members) assist in screwing up DPS education. According to union contract teachers aren’t required to do those duties. And a principal can’t force them. If this is the case then the issues is on DEA to educate it’s members and tell them not to do these activities during planning time. It is incredible how self intrest and lust for power are continuallyh robbing the students of any attempt a education.