By Mary

August 24, 2007 4:18 PM | Link to this

Laura, I agree that some corporate executives, or maybe all of them, are overpaid and feed off greed. However, that does not mean all teachers are underpaid. I admire various pension and investment groups that I think include some teachers’ unions, who have made an issue of overcompensation of executives. CALPERS in California comes to mind as one such group that I think includes teacher pensions. CALPERS and other groups are using their power and shareholder voting privileges, I think, to challenge executive compensation. Good for CALPERS and other such groups when they take on this issue.

By Laura

August 22, 2007 9:45 PM | Link to this

Mary, My brother is a corporate executive who makes more in a year than my husband and I will both make in a lifetime. His training is on corporate time and corporate expense. My husband works for a contractor. Most of his training is on work time and all is paid for by his company. I have several friends who work in the business world and not one spends their own time for training or pays for the training. My neighbor is a nurse. He gets release time to take his training and the hospital pays for the classes. I, however, paid for my master’s degree and it was on my own time. This past summer, in order to renew my license, I spent my whole summer off trying to complete 2 ten week courses in 3 weeks, at a cost of just over $1000. I will not make any more money for this. Honestly, we can run this into the ground until the cows come home and we are not going to agree.

By lou

August 22, 2007 8:49 PM | Link to this

Mary, yes some districts do pay some, but not DPS. Yes, my doctor had all of his loans forgave

By Mary

August 22, 2007 6:41 PM | Link to this

Actually, Lou, I do not think you are leveling about the education profession. Some districts pay at least part of tuition for at least some teachers, as I understand it, as well as additional pay for the degrees. It is news to me that doctors have their student loans foregone -by whom? I have never heard that before, and I am not so sure you are accurate on that, as well. Not everyone in the medical field is highly paid since not everyone is a doctor.

By lou

August 22, 2007 6:05 AM | Link to this

Mary, my mother was a very effective teacher. The time that she spent preparing her lessons, after school musicals, plays,and ect. were required for her to be an effective teacher. My father is the one that doesn’t use is time effectivly and my mom worked more hours. As for the military and taking classes, I was in the Air Force and they paid me for all the cost of classes. DPS does not pay for any of this. I also work a full day, went to grad school at night, worked a second job on the weekend to pay for grad school, and had an infant. I think I know what tired is. As for the medical profession, how can you compare their salaries to a teacher, unless you are talking about a school nurse. Most doctors get their student loans forgave so they don’t pay for their degree, we do with our taxes. Maybe you should stick with engineers because you don’t seem to have a clue of any other profession.

By Mary

August 21, 2007 10:15 PM | Link to this

Lou, while time and hours are important, work skills and efficiency are, too. Your mother might have had a more meticulous and slower paced work style than your dad. So, I would not make too many generalizations based on just your parents. As I recall, teachers also get additonal pay for their required degrees. When I was an officer in the military, just about everyone had to have a masters degree in order to get promoted, or they likely would have been booted out for not making promotions in rank. Most of us had to get these degrees in night school after a full day of work. We were also expected to complete several military correspondence and seminar classes on our own time in order to get promoted in an “up or out” personnel system. I do not know how the private sector, as a genralization, treats advanced degrees and training, but I am thinking they might have certain “incentives” and expectations as well. I think insurance sales agents are required to have refresher classes and accountants usually have to take certain classes and tests in order to receive advanced certification. I get the impression from newspaper ads, that people in the medical and health care fields have requirements for continuing training, as well. And of course pilots have their check rides, refresher training, and medical exams Aicraft techniians also get additional training as a requirement for their jobs.

By Caroline

August 21, 2007 6:45 PM | Link to this

Mary, You’d be happy to know that I already left the teaching field. I make much more money not teaching, and I don’t have anything near as much stress. I can even go to the bathroom when I want. Regarding engineers, you’ve got to be kidding me. Many of my family members & friends are engineers, & there work life is very comfortable. Here is an example from the first site I could find. This is “Dr. Salary” at payscale.com. He says, “The typical major (male or female) in education is paid on average 40% less than the typical engineering major. This pay difference is true both one year and ten years after graduation.”

By lou

August 21, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

Mary, my mother was a teacher and my father an engineer. The compared salaries based on require work hours and my mother made more an hour. Then they added up every hour my mother actually work, required work, grading papers, meetings, class time, calling parents, ect. Then they added up every hour my father worked, including travel time while on TDY, which he was compensated for per diem and all expenses. My mother averaged 30 hours more a week than my father. Using these hours my father made 2x’s that of my mother. You have to look at the procedures when you read stats, you can always make them look the way you want then too. Most teachers have higher degrees because we have to continue in school. What are you going to, not use those hours for a higher degree. My mother has a Masters and my father has a BS.

By Mary

August 21, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

Caroline, if you really think the grass is really greener in engineering, and green is your color, go to engineering school. I am sure all those young teachers you mention without jobs would be perfectly happy to step in. Maybe you should try to become your school’s athletic director or take coaching pay supplement, although schools sometimes are pickier and fret more on their qualifications than they sometimes seem to be regarding teaching positions. Why are coaches and athletic directors paid more than teachers? Maybe the teachers’ union ought to look into that. Do schools think coaches and athletic directors are more valuable than teachers? Why are schools directing tax dollars, including instruction monies, into after school when school day needs are being neglected? Why doesn’t the teachers’ union look into that? I still say engineers are not, on average, paid much more than teachers, and they do not get summers off. A study was done a few years back by two univerity economists (Missouri? or some where like that) who compared pay in accounting, engineering and teaching. I believe they came to the conclusion that teachers were actually paid more. I also bet engineers are layed off and have to relocate for their jobs a lot more often.

By Caroline

August 21, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Mary, So teachers should do their job just out of the motivation to teach, and not worry about salary or benefits. Hmmmmm. Your attitude is leftover from the days when teachers were unmarried young women, so it was o.k. to pay teachers almost nothing. In today’s modern society, teachers are regular people who have families to support. Teachers are professionals and should be treated as such. They certainly are required to get the same education as other professionals. I can’t believe you state that teachers don’t have to face the same kinds of lay-offs as other professionals. Did you realize that Ohio has lost over 10,000 teaching jobs over the last several years??? There are plenty of very educated, very hardworking, caring teachers out there who don’t have jobs. It is really easy to find a chart of education required for various jobs and the salaries that those professionals receive. Teachers and social workers—who both need master’s degrees—are always at the bottom of the charts. Is this because their jobs are less important??? Teachers certainly are left paying the same students loans as engineers—who yes, they really do make much more than teachers.

By Mary

August 21, 2007 7:37 AM | Link to this

Laura, everyone has bills, including all taxpayers d workes who pay government workers through various taxes. And some enlisted have degrees, including PhDs. My main point is teachers should not be just comparing their pay to those who have it better when there are many who have it worse, including many military and the “pink ghettos”, as portrayed in :”Nickeled and Dimed”. Many beginning commercial pilots with degrees start at less than $20,000 a year. Just as in the military there are differences in pay regarding enlisted and officer, there are major dfferences in beginning and experienced teacher pay. Meanwhile, the public is fed the line that all teachers are underpaid. I stand by my statement that schools should educate the masses about their responsibilities as citizens and future voters. That does not mean parents should not also do that as well.

By School Supporter

August 21, 2007 12:23 AM | Link to this

Laura wrote, “Teaching students to value their country and those who fight for it really is the responsibility of the parent.” This understates the role of public schools. The Ohio Revised Code may be found at: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/3313.602 Justice Resnick spoke to this in her dissent in Ohio PTA v State Board. Senator Clinton takes a similar position that schools which don’t support good citizenship should be ineligible for state support.

By Laura

August 20, 2007 7:03 PM | Link to this

Mary, I may “technically” be a government worker, but I do not get the benefits many of them get, especially civil service workers. I have friends who have worked for the government and had many benefits as well as a better salary than I. I completely disagree with your assessment that military personnel with degrees make poor salaries. Again, I have friends who fit that catagory and they certainly make good money. It is true that enlisted service personnel are seriously underpaid and their working conditions are at times very poor. I grew up as an Air Force brat whose father made a very low salary and who spent more time away from home than at home. So I do understand the sacrifices the military makes. To make such a ridiculous comparison of teaching and the military in a war zone sets a sour note with me. If the real purpose is to make me think what I do in any way compares to what the military in a war zone do, it isn’t going to work. What you are asking educators to accomplish is ludicrous. It is my job to teach students the basics of math, language arts, science and social studies. It is the job of some teachers to give students information of past historical events so students can understand what history has to teach us. Teaching students to value their country and those who fight for it really is the responsibility of the parent. My husband and I have done our job in that respect and we never once thought it was a teacher’s responsibility. And I’ll be sure to include your opinion about what I should cherish more than pay when my bills come due next month. I’m sure the companies will all agree to waive my bills in exchange for my contribution to society.

By Mary

August 20, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

Laura, you are also a government worker with a lot of protections not offered in the private sector, including relative job security, good pay and benefits. Government workers should not be primarily motivated by pay and benefits. In fact, you have better working conditions than many other government employees. Compare your situation with other government jobs like the military. They have no public say in their job situation and most make much less money even with lots of degrees. Rich, poor, highly educated, or lowly educated Americans have equal votes to elect leaders that determine the job situation for our military in uniform. Today, some employers in the private sector even illegally fire some of them (reservists and guard members)from their jobs when they return from a war zone. The number one job of public educators is to educate the American people to be aware as citizens. Public educators whining about their own pay and working conditions while American blood is being shed in a foreign country by other government workers with no union and no summers off sets a sour note for some of us. You need to focus number one on improving our educational system to save our culture and country from itself. That should be a more cherished motivator for a teacher than pay.

By Scott Elliott

August 20, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

We had a problem with the data for the first few hours it was online for AP success rate. If Buford looked early enough, he may have seen the wrong figure for DPS. The problem is fixed now and all the data there is correct. Sorry for any confusion this caused.

By Rachael

August 20, 2007 9:50 AM | Link to this

Buford, I’m not sure where you got your AP data, but it is incorrect. According to the state report card, 130 DPS students took AP tests in 2006; 14.6% passed. And while all students may not go to college, they should all have the opportunity.

By Laura

August 19, 2007 11:44 PM | Link to this

Buford is correct regarding the need for trades that do not require a college degree. I have a master ‘s degree + and nearly 30 years experience in one job. My husband has taken a lot of classes but only has an associates degree. He has worked for numerous contractors. He also makes significantly more than I do, does not pay premiums for his insurance, has 5 weeks paid vacation he can take any time he wants, never brings home work, never works without getting paid and is 100% compensated for any course work he takes. Every year his company has a company paid Christmas dinner and summer picnic. Employees are given shirts with the company logo. If I go to the Christmas party, I pay. If I want a school t-shirt, I pay. Now go ahead and tell me how much better I have it than other workers.

By Thespis

August 19, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

So, the state of Ohio has given the media another measurement with which to hammer teachers and school districts. Check out this posting: http://thespisjournal.wordpress.com/2007/08/19/thespis-journal-exclusive-essay-media-played-like-a-violin-by-the-ode/

By Buford

August 19, 2007 10:09 AM | Link to this

Scott, I did not see anything regarding the DPS schools/students that I was not expecting. DPS ranked at the bottom for ACT and SAT scores and almost at the bottom for Honors Diplomas. For AP testing, DPS had apparently less than 10 pass (with score of 3 or better) out of 17 who competed. And DPS is categorized as Academic Watch, one of three Districts in the area of that category. Realistically, I don’t get all fired up about students and ACT/SAT/AP test scores. Not all kids need to or should go to college and whether a person has a college degree or not - is not absolutely indicative of their worth or earning potential in this world. There is plenty of room for students to take targeted training for such areas as auto mechanics, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, construction, tool and die, sheet metal, iron working - the list can get very long. Such trades are honorable, pay decently, and the need for them is likely to increase as time passes.