By joe_mamma

January 24, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this

Rich, you should talk to your union about preventing you from negotiating your own salary. Notice I wasn’t complaining about working extra hours. It’s just a fact. You’re the one complaining about working and claiming that non-teachers don’t work extra hours. I’m just here to let you know non-teachers put in extra hours too. I know teachers work hard and put in extra hours, I married a teacher.

By Mary

January 24, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

Laura, I think you need to break down your discussion for enlisted versus officers. Officers are in an up or out promotion system unlike teachers who essentially have tenure, as well as no forced relocations to another state or country. Getting a degree is simply to make them competitive for promotion, but does not assure them of one. Very few have a chance to get their degrees fulltime at AFIT. Also, just as some teachers put in more hours than others, some officers and enlisted put in more hours than others. I would say it is rarer to get extra compensation for the added hours in the military than in the teaching profession. Those who are in a combat zone get some meager addition while those in certain hard to fill professional jobs get some added professional pay (doctors,lawyers,pilots). I have seen all the supplemental pay contracts teachers (and coaches) get for putting in some additional hours during the summer and after school hours. It really adds up.

By Laura

January 23, 2008 7:55 PM | Link to this

Mil_Mom, Your husband is not the norm. I grew up in a military family, and still know numerous military families. It is rare that I have heard of military regularly working extended hours. Nor is it a given that a military person goes to school on their own time. In fact, service people are sometimes given time during their work day to attend classes and sometimes their duty station is AFIT. In addition, service people are reimbursed for their education- including books. You mentioned your husband going to school to get a promotion. Teachers usually get very little compensation in return for their education and seldom have their education costs reimbursed. In reality, it is not possible to make a perfect comparison of any two careers. I don’t think most teachers on this forum are whining. They point out these issues to show those who have no real knowledge of teaching that it isn’t always as simple as some people would have you believe.

By mil_mom

January 23, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this

I get tired of hearing of the extra hours teachers put in. Please go over to Wright-Patterson and ask a military member whether they put in extra hours. My husband works at least 7:30-6:00 everyday, and that is because I insist that he come home at 6. After the kids are in bed, he finishes more work. He was required to complete a graduate degree to be promoted. He did this on his own time and did not have time during the summer months to concentrate completely on his studies. All this does not include the fact that military members are always on call 24 hours a day. Furthermore, when they are deployed, they are on duty 24 hours a day. Please stop whining. Things in the private sector are not better. I’ve seen both.

By Keith

January 22, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

joemamma, When teachers can negotiate their own salary to a higher level when they are one of those who does difficult teaching and are effective at it, then perhaps we can compare to that “imaginary” private sector where people work all those extra hours. I watched those private sector folks who leave their job behind at 5 pm and play all evening while I graded papers and showed up at after school events. Yeah, it’s a rough life. Then they go in and got a 10% raise every six months based on performance. Yeah, it’s a rough life compared to teaching. Lay off the comparisons between the two types of work; they don’t compare at all.

By joe_mamma

January 22, 2008 8:22 AM | Link to this

Man Rich, stop the whining about “unpaid” work. Most professionals are salaried and do not make extra when they put in extra hours. A lot of professionals also bring work home with them. And believe me in the private sector you are expected to complete your work. It doesn’t matter how many hours it takes. You do it or you lose your job. A lot of teachers work hard and put in a lot of extra hours….we know that. I’m married to a teacher and I see the hours she puts in. The difference is that she doesn’t whine about it.

By William

January 21, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this

Mariaa!!!, please post your references on what constitutes a good parent. Your comments suggest that you have a great deal of knowledge to pass on. Suggest you read the following article posted on the National Education Association web site - �Why Some Parents Don�t Come to School, What keeps them away�. I found the article using the keyword �homeschool� within the sites search function. This well written article was published to help educators gain some insight into what some parents feel about public schools.

By Rich

January 21, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this

“TRS”, I’m sorry if you don’t appreciate or believe the “tired” story about long after-school hours put in by teachers, but I’m married to an elementary school teacher. While I acknowledge that other professionals put in long hours too, I’d be hard pressed to identify another profession that, as a whole, puts in so many extra hours — with those extended hours being literally expected, necessary and TRULY unpaid. The job could not be done without those extra hours. Sorry if you find this truth tiresome, but it’s dishonest to reject it out of hand.

By Jenni

January 21, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this

I think the high turnover rate for teachers starts with their college education. I am an almost 30 year old going to school for my education degree. It Frightens me with a capital “F” the other students that I go to school with who are also trying to earn their education degrees. I overhear students talking about how they don’t like children, they don’t like to read and don’t read their assignments, how they cheat. Those are the teachers who bow out in the first couple of years. I have children in the public school system so I am a little more alert to who their future teachers might be and it’s scary.

By dps teacher 2

January 21, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this

After teaching for 30+ years, that is still a tough question. I have taught rapists, murderers, death row inmates and I have taught future scientists, doctors and lawyers. And yes, all in the DPS school system. Rewarding? Somedays, some years it is a very rewarding profession. However, when weighed against the extra hours spent at home working,the inequitable pay DPS pays when compared to simiiar districts, the money I have had to invest in post-grad level courses to renew certificates after being labeled “Highly Qulified” and often working 2 jobs in the summers, working under incompentent admnistrators …….Let’s just say, I have told my teenager that if she decides to go into teaching, she is on her own with college finances. I will assist her finacially as best I can for all other professional preparations.

By School Supporter

January 21, 2008 9:33 AM | Link to this

Laura writes, “If we want teachers to be truly highly qualified and highly effective, we need to insist that colleges make their programs more effective.” Now would be the time, with NCLB reauthorization on the horizon. Any thoughts on what, specifically, ought be fixed?

By Mary

January 21, 2008 8:25 AM | Link to this

Laura, as pointed out in a D.L. Stewart (Dayton Daily News) article a few Sunday’s ago on the eve of the big game, OSU spends three times on it athletes what it spends on an undergraduate in education.

By j. gray

January 20, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this

any profession is overrated if you go into it for the wrong reasons. it should mean more to you than just a paycheck.

By Laura

January 20, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

I think “Sunnymom” has brought up what is probably one of the biggest reasons teachers leave the profession so often and why some, like myself, don’t encourage others to enter the field. Teachers are so unbelievably unprepared in most cases that it really is a crime. The talk among many teachers is that is takes 3-5 years of experience before you have any real idea about what you are doing. I think some of that probably also comes simply from being a little older. One big misperception I keep hearing is that unlike choosing a college that has a good reputation for turning out certain majors such as engineers, “any” college is good enough to get your degree from if you want to teach. If we want teachers to be truly highly qualified and highly effective, we need to insist that colleges make their programs more effective.

By DPS Teacher

January 20, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

I would imagine that a fairly steady number of representatives from any chosen profession would tell you in roughly equal numbers that their profession is/isn’t over-rated or under-rated. Rock stars spend months on buses, planes, eating take out, missing their families, etc. Small business owners take great financial risks. Doctors have to pay extreme insurance bills. Teaching, like any job, isn’t for everyone and the public perception is different from the everyday reality. But for some, it’s a good fit. Perhaps the authors of the article should spend a week shadowing each of the professions they rated and come out with a few deeper articles, rather than a simplistic list. Leave the lists to Letterman and practice some actual in-depth Journalism for a change.

By Teach 1

January 20, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this

Overrated? According to who’s standards. Teaching is a noble pursuit. I am a part mother/counselor/coach/public relations guru. I give of myself until there’s almost nothing left. There are some bad teachers out there. But that goes with every profession. Teaching is not exempt. Most teachers teach because they want to help young people. How could that ever be overrated?

By Mariaaa!!!

January 19, 2008 8:27 PM | Link to this

The profession is not overrated. Quite the opposite…by way too many people. Would I recommend it? Sure, but I’d qualify that recommendation just as I would any job possibility. I’m not a teacher but work in the classroom for a local district. You have no idea what educating our youth is like until you have spent time inside those four walls. Many of the problems come with the students into the classroom from home in the form of baggage from parents who, for whatever reason, don’t know or care how to raise and educate their children. The problem is not the teachers. They do their best every day. If you don’t believe me, spend more than an hour visiting your child’s classroom. We need to educate today’s adults in how to raise children, and not question whether the teaching profession is overrated.

By Barb

January 19, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this

I was under he impression this meant was the job overrated by people who were entering the field. Did they expect more than they actually got when working with children? I don’t think it has anything to do with how people who teach actually feeling if they are overrated or underrated. The other question would beg the answer do teachers feel appreciated by the general public, students administrators?

By Sharon

January 19, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this

Before I read these blogs, I want to say that teaching is never over-rated. $$$ cannot replace “the moment” of understanding, of friendship,of caring. I taught my first school in 1967. I did not get to retire, but I pray that my energy lasts in some fashion so that I may be part of some classroom as long as the Good Lord and some school system allow! God bless each and all! Thanks!

By Scott Elliott

January 19, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this

Fred, to be clear, I am in no way endorsing US News’ list. I merely pointed to it to prompt discussion. I was interested to see if any of the teachers who post here agreed with US News. Doesn’t seem like they do.

By Fred E.

January 19, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this

Scott,who do you think motivated and guided you to be able to read and write the article/ comments for the DDN.? A teacher!By the way Scott, your parents were your very first “teachers”, are they OVERRATED too!

By School Supporter

January 19, 2008 8:30 AM | Link to this

U.S. News has put itself in the running for the list of lamest lists! High salaries? Inadequate salaries, unpaid summers, and unreimbursed professional expenses. Which raises the question: when teachers spend their summers and money to meet “highly qualified teacher” requirements, does that investment help teachers succeed in the “exhausting, if not impossible” job of “teach[ing] all students high-level material” in “classes grouped at random?” Teach for America alumni have their doubts: http://roomd2.blogspot.com/2007/11/ledge.html

By Sunnymom

January 19, 2008 7:53 AM | Link to this

You need to check out The Education Schools Project- a 2006 study showed that “aspiring teachers emerge from college woefully unprepared for their jobs”, and depicts “most teacher education programs as deeply flawed.” Then read “Inside American Education” by Thomas Sowell. Certified does NOT mean qualified.

By Jammin

January 19, 2008 4:57 AM | Link to this

The material that is taught may be overated-the examples the teachers set of values and morals in how they carry themselves is not. These folks spend more time with students than their parents do.

By lou

January 18, 2008 9:01 PM | Link to this

Yes we do make a difference. No we cannot help or save all children, but we do make a difference. If you go inthinking you have summers off and short days you need a reality check. Those teachers that come in not understanding howtruely hard and how much ti,e is needed to do the job are the ones that leave in a couple of years. My nephew talked about going into teaching. He thought teaching math would be fun because it was easy. I said it is easy to you, now what are you going to do when a student doesn’t understand the concept you are working on. He has since, not changing his mind completely, put more thought into his chioices.

By TRS

January 18, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this

Teachers are in a unique position and the ones I know really do care about the kids and seek their best interests and can have a positive or negative affect. Almost anyone can remember their best and/or worst teacher. That being said the “extra hours” argument Rich advances is getting a bit tired. Most all professional positions from clergy to attorneys, front line management, small business owners, etc and others with equilivant credentials all work extra hours as needed to get the job done. Most of these folks are alotted 3-4 weeks vacation whereas teachers do receive more time off than that. I don’t begrudge that but please don’t pretend that the teaching profession is the only one in which this occurs and discount this particular benefit of the profession.

By Laura

January 18, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this

I would not recommend teaching to anyone. My step-daughter is working on her degree and my son, who is in high school, thinks he wants to teach also. As far as the comment by Rich that students know going into teaching what to expect, I think that is far from the reality. Every student teacher I encounter and even my children, think things will be different for them. I know I felt the same way. They still talk about this burning desire to help others learn to love learning. I never hear anyone say: “Oh, well, I hear the pay is great and you get summers off!” As Rich points out, summers off is not the whole story. Even if you are a rare person who actually takes the summer off and does nothing, you still aren’t being paid. The statement in the Newsweek article that a teacher who sticks with the profession can earn 6 figures is pretty far-fetched. I’ve been teaching for nearly 30 years and have a master’s degree but don’t make anywhere near six figures. There are too many obstacles in public education today that teachers are held responsible or accountable for but they have no control over. The lack of respect by students, parents and the public in general is a big morale breaker. If the job were so easy and paid as well as some believe, the turnover rate wouldn’t be so high.

By The Razor

January 18, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this

As a member of the teaching profession, I advocate that those who teach only do so after having acquired experience in the workplace. I am a strong believer in the notion that teachers pass along experiences, ideas, viewpoints and attitudes far more than “what’s in the book.” The text can only come alive and having meaning if the person teaching from it can augment, supplement, add context to and demystify.

By ohdave.net

January 18, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

Garbage. Teaching is a great profession. Difficult? Sure. Discouraging at times? Absolutely. It’s still a great life. What a pessimistic, cynical view from US News.

By David Esrati

January 18, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

IMHO teaching in our public schools is one of the last honorable professions left. Unfortunately, while all of us remember a few good teachers- we don’t realize how valuable they were in our lives. I can say that for a few of the most amazing teachers I’ve had, their teaching was worth more than any professional consultant could offer- and it was under appreciated at the time.

By Rich

January 18, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this

Scott, if you go to the actual U.S. News story, their description of the teaching profession is in reality nothing more than the standard anti-teacher rhetoric generally espoused by people who vote reflexively against any and all school levies. Believe me, teachers KNOW (and have known for a long time) exactly what challenges face them every day in the classroom. No one thinks it’s easy. And the bogus inference — made THREE TIMES in this short magazine item — that teachers get a summer vacation, so they really only work 9 months each year, ignores reality. The fact is, EVERY truly dedicated teacher spends countless extra hours outside the classroom grading papers, preparing lessons and otherwise working HARD at their chosen profession. A little more commentary from you on what U.S. News actually wrote would have been appropriate.