By mwm

November 30, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

Agree with some of your responses except to try and define nuclear power as “clean”. It is not. And, will cause massive waste issues. Plus transportation of waste and storage of said waste. Hanford, Yucca Mountain and other sites. Alternatives are solar,wind, hyrdo and other sources. But, nuclear was and is still a dangerous enterprise. Of course the repubs want it, It would support Halliburton and Bechtel; big donors to the GOP. That is why McCain was pushing it. Also, there are cars that are very efficient but, cannot be sold here. Not because of safety issues. Some are clean running diesels and some are super fuel efficient. Some made by ford, some built by european car companies.

By Ethel S.

November 29, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this

I do not think there would be major objections to an auto industry bailout plan if it would work to save the jobs of the workers and related industries. But that arrogant bunch of CEOs who flew into DC on their corporate jets made it hard to swallow that they were there to help out the workers. All of the American car manufacturing companies have too much in legacy costs and they should be required to bring the President of UAW to the Congressional meetings to discuss their important role too. I am tired of all these CEOs with big pay checks coming to DC after their leadership has caused their own demise asking the taxpayers for money. Let us just see how much of an executive pay check they are willing to take to get a bailout. And will they fly on a commercial airline to save some money? Let us see who has the moxie to hold their feet to the fire and what type of leadership the CEOs will display.

By TRS

November 29, 2008 12:26 AM | Link to this

I agree with what you are saying - my only point is there are a lot more things which need to be put in place for usage on a mass scale. Since the diesel product is clean, will the environmentalists back off and allow for refineries to be built of modified for diesel? Will they allow clean nuclear to increase the power grid so the vehicles you refer to can be charged? Lots of shoes to drop.

By mwm

November 28, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this

On the subject of the air car; yes a body of fiberglass and injection molded processes. With a tubular frame and will meet us safety standards. Now, the range is 848 miles. GM had an electric vehicle years ago. Also, the smart, canadian version diesel gets 70 mpg now. But, will not be sold in the us. Ford has a diesel fiesta sold in europe and getting 60 mpg, but, they will not sell it in the us. It is not a matter of being diesel as diesel technology has progressed to clean burning highly efficient motors. Combine that with a hybrid drive and, you have the future. Problem is, the big three refuse to embrace or strive for the future. So, let them fail. Any bailout must include new technology, electric, and highly efficient gas or diesel engines. Or, the big three are only delaying going out of business. The point is, the technology exists today to build highly efficient vehicles at costs that average consumers can afford. The foriegn automotive comanies are building better vehicles at lower cost, with better warranties and better mpg and better quality. They are also the leading edge on hybrid drives, clean, efficient diesel technology and, better manufactuing processes.

By TRS

November 28, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this

MWM - both those options look intriguing; but, in looking at some of the articles written about them, they still have a ways to go. It is said the ZPM is underpowered. They plan to market them in India but the body will be made foam and glue which certainly a vehicle lacking in structural integrity and won’t be allowed to be sold in the US. They have limited mileage range (60-100 miles)and they too will need to be charge. Anticipated cost was around $18,000 and the prototypes shown certainly depicted a very small compact. In sum, at this point it is probably best suited as a runabout vehicle for those who can afford $18,000 for such a vehicle and certainly not suited for long trips and heavy driving. Also, this is a vehicle which has been scheduled for production several times over the years only but it did not happen. The Tesla is even more intriguing but is now only available in a sports coupe and costs around $109,000 with a long waiting list. I don’t know about you, but I don’t have that kind of pocket change. Both are interesting and evolving technologies but has it been fully developed enough that people will buy them and can they afford it? Once purchased, can the current power grid service the vehicle and the many others that could someday be out there? If a heat wave can stress out the electric grid, imagine what a bunch of cars charging would do? What about the need to increase our capacity to refine diesel? Certainly some technology is there; but, it is in its infancy, there are real barriers in to overcome and even if it makes the market, there is no guarantee of success; thus, the risk involved. I certainly agree that if the American mfgrs are to be viable in the future they need to pursue these and other alternatives. In some ways the are with the hybrids and the Volt which was to come out next year albeit late to the game; but, beyond the technology, there also has be be a market and an infrastructure.

By mwm

November 28, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

The smart diesel gets 70 mpg. It is only sold in canada. The air car from ZPM will acheive 100+ mpg. The tesla all electric car can do 100 mph and has a range of 300 miles on a charge. So, yes, the technology does exist now to build and sell vehicles that get over 70 mpg or, are all electric. The big three missed the boat. They have to prove that they will may a car and a small truck that will get the 70 mpg or more and build and sell a vehicle comparible to the tesla. They also must sell them at a price average consumers can afford. The better idea is to have the oil companies bail out the auto industry, since they are partners in crime.

By mwm

November 28, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

The smart diesel gets 70 mpg. It is only sold in canada. The air car from ZPM will acheive 100+ mpg. The tesla all electric car can do 100 mpg and has a range of 300 miles on a charge. So, yes, the technology does exist now to build and sell vehicles that get over 70 mpg or, are all electric. The big three missed the boat. They have to prove that they will may a car and a small truck that will get the 70 mpg or more and build and sell a vehicle comparible to the tesla. They also must sell them at a price average consumers can afford. The better idea is to have the oil companies bail out the auto industry, since they are partners in crime.

By Patty

November 28, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this

Bailing out any company is ridiculous. For decades many businesses and industries have come and gone. Bail out to Citi was totally wrong - they are a very corrupt greedy corporation. Bailout the Big 3 is totally wrong they too are corrupt. The government needs to stop the bailouts it does not help us the taxpaying citizens. All the government talks about is bailing out these companies so we the average citizen can get loans and go into debt that we cannot pay. How does that improve the economy? Over and over they keep saying people aren’t buying homes, people aren’t buying cars cause they can’t get loans. NO. People don’t want debt in hard times, so people do not apply for loans. They can keep throwing money at these companies and people still will not try for loans in this economy. The government is not helping Main Street they are helping Wall Street and the unions without regard to the taxpayer. But telling us it is for us. More lies!

By LizardKingLives

November 27, 2008 7:39 PM | Link to this

For those of you who are against helping the big 3 get through this crisis you need to wake and recognize that the failure of the Big 3 very likely will result in the Great Depression part II.Here is why, close to 3 million jobs could very much be lost.The ripple effect will force auto prices to rise as the foreign autos raise prices.Advertising dollars will be lost.Tax revenue will be lost.Further foreclosures and deeper financial crisis.I can go on and on.One way or another we will pay for it either up front (with a loan) or in the long run through additional use of our social welfare programs.Lets face it we are willing to basically write a blank check to Citi and we are not even sure what their books exactly look like and no jobs are going to be saved or created and none of that money will be loaned to the american people and guess what the American tax payor is ok with it.But to suggest we help out the Big 3 and possible keep a depression from occuring, save thousands possibly millions of american jobs and keep people in their homes and out of the welfare lines and ignorant americans get upset.

By TRS

November 27, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

Full disclosure - part of our household income depends on GM. That being said, I agree with the concept MWM advances; but, I think we are discounting the ability to make that happen. If 70-100 mpg vehicles were so easy to build, why hasn’t the foreign mfgrs done so? Best I can tell, among the major mfgrs the Prius is best at 48mpg. There is also the issue of marketability. Most folks still want a nice car to drive. Safety comes into the picture as well. Some of the higher mileage vehicles seem unsafe - there just isn’t enough structural integrity for them to be safe on the roadway with larger vehicles and trucks. Finally, the government wants to involve themselves in this process, almost mandating the type vehicles to be built. Remember the Zil or Yugo made in Communist countries? Is that what you want? As for diesels, for years the environmentalists have taken actions which supresses our ability to refine diesel. Case in point, look at diesel prices compared to gas? If diesel is to become an alternative, we will need to add refining capacity. Electrics - they have to be charged by those coal burning power plants. Again, the environmentalists have nixed nuclear and only recently have come on board for clean coal. It is possible that all the things MWM advances can be done, but there is no quick cure. We still need to increase domestic production with drilling. As for the auto mfgrs, I am a capitalist at heart; but, we also need be pragmitists. If they go down the dumper, the cost to us will be significantly more than if it can be established that they can survive. One wonders if they do go down if another entity would come along, pick up the pieces as the domestic auto mfgrs still have significant portion of the market but that is just speculation - I have heard nothing about such a thing. If the auto mfgrs come with a business plan which lacks real change, we’re throwing good money after bad. If they bring something in that looks fesible, Congress could write a specific bankruptcy law which would allow them to do some of the things which need to be done; yet, avoid some of the pitfalls of pure bankruptcy. That option may be the best of both worlds; but, the devil is in the details. Either way, we have others lining up with their hands out as well and that needs to be stopped. I realize Christmas is a time of giving, but this is getting reidiculous.

By mwm

November 27, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

My next new car will be foreign made. Better quality, better warranty, better service and better price. What GM, ford and chrysler need to do is build a vehicle with 70-100 mpg at an affordable price. Don’t say it can’t be done. That is just a lame excuse not to do it. Also, american made hybrids are not as fuel efficient as their foreign counterparts. The new clean diesel technology offers high mpg with lower emissions. And, the new battery technology has much to offer. The big three are running out of excuses. And by the way, if we americans bail out the automotive industry, I think we all deserve stock dividends and free access to their factories since we will be part owners and should be able to monitor their business activities.

By Rich

November 27, 2008 8:01 AM | Link to this

Enough is enough. Let the big 3 file bankruptcy and reorganize. We are tired of seeing our tax dollars being used for bailouts that weren’t in the original bill passed by Congress. And, we are really tired of seeing our tax dollars used to buy stock, give bonuses to execs, and pay for naming rights on a baseball stadium.

By Wordell

November 27, 2008 12:54 AM | Link to this

Rob: Facts elude you. Take your meds, confer with your union leadership,and your congressional string pullers, and “gooblygook” us all to death with your indignation on how “somehow the U.S. auto industry is getting screwed” due to vapors/moon phases/small grey (gray?) creatures abducting you, ect. Rob…Couldn’t be that foriegn car makers benefit due to U.S. Gov’t intervention/lack of market protection??? GASP!!! Oh…it’s due to Republicans!!! Why, Rob, would capitalist Republicans undermine their own country? (PROFITS!!!) Come on Rob…spin your theory!!!!

By Rob

November 26, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this

Wordell - oh my lord, where do we start? Why are Honda/Nissan/Toyota/etc/ successful? Well, for starters, they can produce whole units at lower hourly costs than GM/Ford/Chrysler. That much is true. But a quick perusal of a few US Trade Representative reports to Congress also shed light on the facts that not all international markets are as open to US companies as US markets are to foreign companies. That’s a problem NOT caused by any local union worker who has your dander all aflame. The domestic car companies CAUSED the problem? It might have had as much to do with the demand of the domestic market, who couldn’t get enough SUV/Truck/Big Car production every year so they could whip 60-100 miles on a daily commute every day since gas was so cheap. What was Ford supposed to do? Cede that market to somebody else? You know, as many people who I know who bought an SUV built down at Moraine - not a single person told me that they had a gun held to their head by the dealer to buy the darn thing. Look - the market demand for their products got hammered by commodities prices, and then the consumers left to buy anything else they had have been bent over by global financial turmoil. Neither of those two facts would have been mitigated at all if GM had replaced every high dollar union laborer with voilunteers off the street. You can go hate Obama and unions all you want - but you’re about a million miles off the mark with respect to the causes and full impacts of the problem. Have you looked at the NON-UNION white collar costs at these places? How about “General and Adminstrative” expenses?

By Y..

November 26, 2008 8:24 PM | Link to this

I think that this “plan” is also going to fail and I cannot see this group coming up with anything substantial. They are not the only car manufacturer (even though they would like for us to believe they are?) If Ford can bring a 65 MPG car to Europe, why can’t they get it here? There is a reason its never been brought to the US and its not rocket science. Let them file bankruptcy and reorganize. I am writing my congressman weekly. I suggest anyone else to do the same.

By Wordell

November 26, 2008 7:43 PM | Link to this

I am hoping that GM/Ford/Chryslerdeclare chapter 11 bankrupcy and will reorganize. Question: Why are Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Hundai successful? Concrete business plans and no unions! It’s four against four…the forth member of the U.S. team being the “bleed em’ to death” unions. You want cradle to grave money? Pay for it yourself! Don’t even THINK of me bailing you out for your failure with non union money I earned! Teaching you Obamabot leeching non-productive auto workers about how capitalism works, is like teaching a fire bug the proper use of a fire extingusher. You caused the problem. Got a spending/living habit caused by YOUR GREED?…ask your Daddy to help fund your non-productive cash consuming bottomless pit…NOT ME!!!!

By Rob

November 26, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this

Good points all around, Patty. You are correct - the 3 of them coming back with structural modifications to cost is an enormously huge “if”. And you are right about Moraine - that plant is gone. But we still have significant downstream skin in the game, right here in Montgomery County. A lot of Detroit 3 dealerships - a lot of banks who floorplan those dealerships, a lot of suppliers to those dealerships. And we haven’t even talked about the pubs and restaurants and shops the folks who work at these sites patronize. Don’t get me wrong - I’m no fan of Rick Wagoner or Mulally or the rest of them. How they can countenance “earning” tens of millions when their companies are losing billions is pathetic. But to let more infrastructure than we can imagine swirl into the abyss just because I’d like to see a few CEOs burn doesn’t make much sense.

By Patty

November 26, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this

Yes Rob that would be great. BUT the UAW already said they would not make concessions. The Big 3 even said they could not give a business plan because they could not tell people what they will do in 2010 or 2011 cause they are competitive the BIG 3 don’t work together. Yet if a small business wants a loan they know not to go empty handed, they know they have to have a business plan to even begin discussion. I hope the Big 3 will come back with a good business plan, but I’m not holding my breathe. If the government does bail out the Big 3, I don’t believe that will make a difference for Ohio. GM will still close the Moraine plant.

By Rob

November 26, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this

If the Detroit 3 could show the Congress a plan to get their fully loaded per hour labor expense down to internationally competitive levels (figure out a way to build the things closer to $50 and hour vs. $70), why on earth wouldn’t anybody be in favor of a federally guaranteed bridge loan from a few of the banks the federal government now apparently owns? I don’t know if you know how this works or not - but let’s say we (the banks that the government now owns stock in) loan GM $10 billion at a favorable 5% rate. And let’s say their going foward business plan to get healthy gets costs down so they’re competitive. And then let’s say all the money Bush and Paulson are throwing around gets the economy healthy again. Why wouldn’t we want a.)GM to survive and b.) banks to make money so that c.) we actually earn some of the bailout dollars back? Would it really be terrible for middle class Ohioans (around here, anyway) if Bob Ross and Voss and Reichard stayed in business, and if the parts suppliers and paint shops who service them stay in business? Or are you all really so sick of your nose that you’d hacksaw it off to spite your face?

By ricardo

November 26, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this

Reap what you sow…

By madhatter

November 26, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this

I agree with ecp3886, Also the big 3 pour tons of money into auto racing like Nascar. Use that money to bail them selves out.

By Patty

November 26, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this

“Such resolutions aren’t legally binding but are used to show Congress what voters back home are thinking.” Have any of you voters been asked by Ohio Senators about the auto bailout? “Representatives from the auto industry and labor unions will join him at a Wednesday press conference at 11:45 a.m. at the Statehouse, Miller said.” Those most be the only voters the Ohio Senate cares about. From what I hear middle class Ohio does not want to bailout the auto industry.

By painfultruth

November 26, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

You bleeding-heart crybabies put Democrats in office, and they have no problem spending YOUR money. The Big 3 made gross mistakes for 30 years, and now we’re going to pay? Sorry, but it’s not our fault thay are stupid. Let them file Chapter 11 or send me a check too…

By ecp3886

November 26, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

I would not give the auto industry a dime. They can file chapter 11 like everyone else in trouble. 25 billion will only sustain them for a month and a half. THey will keep coming back, asking for more money. It is a never ending story. THe bailout was not meant for the auto industry. What about the people in credit card debt. Why don’t the feds bail them out also. I can understand bailing out the banks. Everyone wants a piece of the pie. Greed, just begets more greed. Auto CEO’s ,make 5 million a year as their annual salary. THey also have their own private jets. Let them bail out their own companies.