By Mike In Ohio

March 30, 2008 3:17 AM | Link to this

sounds like a bunch of religious wackos bickering. if they’re not attacking everyone else they’re attacking each other. KARMA ROCKS !

By peterson

March 30, 2008 3:42 AM | Link to this

I wonder if the accrediting bodies would approve such a regime of religious education if this were… say a Muslim institution? But somehow Christian fanaticism is acceptable in this country, no matter how many young minds are are twisted in the process. A university that adopts the purposeful denial of rational thought does not deserve accreditation and is a dangerous sham.

By Stephen Bickford

March 30, 2008 5:28 AM | Link to this

You’d have to be a nut case to believe those fairy tales in the first place. So, they got fired for believing the fairy tales are real. Cedarville is really starting to confuse me. I don’t know which side of the ark is up. The Bible contradicts itself so many times and includes so much nonsense that it’s like IRS tax advice.

By Mary

March 30, 2008 8:29 AM | Link to this

Well, ditto to just about everything said here. Having grown up in the Bible Belt and observing the irrational hypocrisy throughout my growing up years, I sometimes think religious institutions are a major threat to democratic freedoms. Maybe the Bible studies department should have embraced the conflict as intellectually healthy and educational. Religions seem to want everyone on a short leash and no independent thought. That is why I try to stay away. My freedom of speech and thought trumps religous affiliation any day of the week.

By HDT

March 30, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

It is very naive to state that evangelical Christians are “supremely respectful” of each other. Is it “supremely respectful” to fire someone without just cause in the middle of summer? Is it “supremely respectful” to fire faculty members who have just been given new contracts? The nasty little secret about Cedarville is how their religion is intolerant, and how judgmental they are of others. It sounds like Cedarville needs to revisit the New Testament, and it’s goal of spreading the gospel to all.

By Stephanie

March 30, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this

If Cedarville University continues down the path of the Emergent Church Movement, it will be to their own demise. Like all false, unbiblical doctrines, their house will not stand on the sand.

By Gary

March 30, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this

Stephanie, How would you know that the Cedarville grievance committee found in favor of the fired prof? Isn’t that information part of the documents seized by the administration? Could you post that document if you have it?

By John

March 30, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

I find that the title ‘fundamentalist’ isn’t quite accurate; while those standing up to the emergent tide at CU are obviously more to the right than their opposition, I once had Dr. Hoffeditz in class and I remember when he spent an entire session denouncing the lack of love found in fundamentalism. The unprofessional and illegal actions by any administration that would revoke contracts reveal where the real lack of love is. Regardless, I’d look here for further updates: http://www.cedarvillesituation.com and http://www.cedarvillesituation.com/links.htm Thank you!

By Maureen

March 30, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

Any professor who would spend a whole class session ranting, about anything, instead of teaching the students about what they paid to learn, is displaying not only a lack of love, but a lack of fiduciary respect that I find shocking. I realize it’s also par for the course in every sort of college and university, but that doesn’t make it better. One would hope that a Christian college would have a higher standard.

By HDT

March 30, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

Here’s another example of “supremely respectful” behavior… “Cedarville Professor’s may attend churches which disagree with the doctrinal position of the University.” Oh no! It’s America, and these professors have just now been given permission to attend the church of their choice. Does the author of this article call this behavior “supremely respectful”?

By Stephanie Gottschlich

March 30, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this

I appreciate everyone jumping in with good questions. To Gary, who asked how I knew the grievance panel sided with Mr. Hoffeditz: I’m pretty sure I say this in the story, but I got that fact from Mr. Hoffeditz. He posted statements on his personal website about their recommendation he be reinstated. So no, I haven’t seen the grievance panel papers - this is according to Mr. Hoffeditz. The university has the only copy of the record of that hearing. Mr. Hoffeditz removed those statements from his website along with a university email (about their demand of the records in custody of the grievance panel members) on Wednesday, March 18. Mr. Hoffeditz told me he took them down (though this is stated on his website too) after getting a letter from the university threatening him with legal action. He disagrees with their demand to remove the statements, but thought it best to take them down because they all might be involved in litigation. One other note: When I say that evangelical Christians are usually supremely respectful of each other, what I meant was that this one of their tenets. Christian faculty in particular - in fact they’re required to be at Cedarville, where it’s clearly stated in their handbook. Whether or not some adhere to those tenets - well, maybe that’s what people are wondering here. Also, to non-evangelical Christians: “Fundamentalism” is perhaps an oversimplified word for the evangelical Christians who hold to the Bible’s fundamentals literally. I welcome anyone here who can elaborate further on the differences between the emerging church movement and fundamentalism, as I had limited space in the story. This is a scholarly debate with entire websites and volumes dedicated to it.

By cma

March 30, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

Stephanie, it was with great interest that I read your article and appreciate your very balanced approach. I see Cedarville U. through a slightly different lens…as a parent who is paying for my child’s tuition to go there. We are not Baptist, but we are Christian and my daughter became familiar with Cedarville while in high school and asked if she could go there. She has had these prof’s in previous years and attests to the high quality of their teaching ability and thought-provoking classes. She, and other students, are very disappointed in the loss of these gentlemen. I have tried to help her understand the points you address in your comment above, specifically that there may be “behind the scenes” elements that have not come to light, and maybe never will. This is tough for idealistic college-age young adults to grasp. What is important for all to keep in mind, in spite of the uninformed comments in earlier posts, is that similar outcomes can occur in secular schools and in the business world, too, not just (Christian) academia. For instance, in my job should I have to discipline an employee (which I do), I cannot share that information with other employees, for the privacy of the disciplined employee trumps their right to know what happened. Similarly, egregious behavior by an employee can result in termination without any prior counseling or disciplinary action. It seems that not everyone understands that. I hope that in this instance the action of Cedarville U’s leadership will be determined to be just and reasonable based on appropriate standards. If not, then not only do you have a followup, but as a parent of a Cedarville student I would hope for appropriate accountability. Cedarville University is an excellent school…and now the students are getting a lesson in life from a different perspective. Please keep your objective stories coming on this matter. Thanks!

By FinallyavoiceofReason.

March 30, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

Cedarville college is just down the road from Antioch (Yellow Springs) which is currently experiencing its own difficulties.The problems that both institutions are facing could be eliminated if the two could find a natural mid ground, perhaps in Clifton, and establish a new institution of higher learning. Like a magnificent blend that arises from the marriage of two stark contrasts, the ultra right winged orthodox fanatical neo-cons of Cedarville could combine forces with the leftist liberal, socialist pinkos of Antioch to create a new education system that has true investigation and learning as its guiding principles, rather than the perpetuation of narrow, self-serving ideologies.There could finally be a balance in that cauldron of the buckeye state that could better serve the common good. And for crying out loud, have a football team at the new institution. That is the fundamental reason the two colleges are currently experiencing problems, no football team. A college without a football team? Scandalous! Finally, a voice of reason.

By mark

March 30, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this

Little by little rational thought and freedom seems to erode the power and irrationality of organized religion. Just like mental illness may never be completely irradicated, neither will the mental illness of religion. Just look around at how much havoc it causes the human race.

By Freedom of Speech?

March 30, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this

Below is a link I found circulating the Internet of Bob Milliman meeting with students regarding the current issues at Cedarville University. The sound clip last about 1 hour and 45 minutes. Apparently this link has been on many sights however, Cedarville must have some pull as they are pulled down in less than 12 hours. So much for freedom of speech. In the recording Bob Milliman states Cedarville did not fire the professors until after the accreditation process was completed due to fear of fallout. Also in the recording Bob Milliman states that he is “the boss” and he made the decision, now apparently “the boss” misspoke. Was Bob lying then or is Bob lying now? What is Cedarville trying so desperately trying to hide? I am not familiar with Dr. Hoffeditz nor Dr Mapes as professors, nor have I ever met them. I find this whole thing incredibly interesting and look forward to seeing how a Christian institution plays this out. http://dodownload.filefront.com/9889484//7ab4e4ba7aaddb6de3fe4998fc80ca267771fda491af41290a2e5702b00661d041c373375eb6189f

By HDT

March 30, 2008 6:18 PM | Link to this

I doubt that the administration at Cedarville University knows the meaning of free speech in America. They have been stifling free speech for a long, long time. This is another example of the evangelical version of “supremely respectful” behavior. The Cedarvile Administration must have found dirty tricks in their latest edition of the Bible.

By Cheryl

March 30, 2008 6:22 PM | Link to this

Okay folks, lets see how long the above link stays up before The Cedarville Gestapo makes The Dayton Daily remove it!

By Richard

March 30, 2008 6:30 PM | Link to this

I’m still looking for where Cain’s wife came from, in the mythical land of Nod, east of Eden. Would hate to teach a science class at that college. Must be interesting. Don’t see how this story merits space in the DDN.

By HDT

March 30, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this

wow, Cheryl, you really missed the point. No one ever said that the Cedarville Administration held sway or influence over the DDN….simply, these controlling, evangelical extremists seek to stifle free speech at their little colony of intolerance in northern Greene County. Are you, Cheryl, another the apologists for these “christians” who have found dirty tricks to be Biblical?

By student

March 30, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this

I am a student at CU…and the link to that recording of Bob Milliman is blocked by CU’s filtering servers…it says “Organizational policies prohibit access to this page.” Apparently this content falls under the following statement in its Acceptable Use Policy: “The University reserves the right to define and enforce appropriate regulations to ensure that [access to network and computing resources] is consistent with the University mission.”

By Cheryl

March 30, 2008 7:28 PM | Link to this

No HDT, you have missed the point. I am not on the Cedarville side. I just find it funny that when this recording was on other websites it was removed within 12 hours. I read this myself on Thefacebook. I wonder how Cedarville does it?

By Adam

March 30, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this

I want to start off by saying that some of those who have left comments should be ashamed of themselves. Perjorative terms such as “Gestapo” and “Neo-Con” do not do much to further a healthy mature discussion of this issue. With that said, let me go on record as saying that professors like David Hoffeditz are a gift to any institution. As an alumni of Cedarville University, I can honestly say that David is a brilliant man who cares both about his work in academia but more so about his students. He is, unapologetically an evangelical conservative. He also has a temper, just like any normal human being would. I don’t doubt that there were perhaps unprofessional statements made by Dr. Hoffeditz. However, the course of action taken by the University seems to be rather similar to using a baseball bat to squash a fly. (Terminating a tenured and highly beloved professor due to unprofessional statements seems a bit much, doesn’t it?) Perhaps what troubles me the most in this situation is the rigidity which both sides, emergant and fundamental, seem to display. As Christians we believe in a mystical body of Christ. (Essentially an extended theological family.) What both sides seem to have forgotten is that, just as no body part is the same or does the same thing, no parts in the body of Christ are the same. Cedarville should strive to establish an environment which encourages both progressive and conservative ideologies. It is only through interaction with both sides of ideology that the body of Christ makes significant progress. At the same time, Dr. Hoffeditz should remember that while he is entitled to disagree with others’ opinions and stances, he -as a Christian- should do so with grace and love. (NOT with anger and/or unprofessional statements.) Essentially, both sides need to learn to say: “I respect your opinion, though I choose to disagree with your ideas, I still embrace you as a brother/sister in Christ.” Then again, those are just my own thoughts I suppose…..

By HDT

March 30, 2008 9:18 PM | Link to this

It seems that the ghosts of Christians past are coming out to haunt the narrow colony of intolerance known as Cedarville University. Both the fundamental and emergent views do not seem to exclude anyone from the realm of Christianity or the love of Christ. Only in their narrow corner of the world would someone be fired for holding different views.

By adam

March 30, 2008 10:01 PM | Link to this

HDT, I think I agree with what you say, just not so much how you say it. First, there are in fact some amazingly good people at Cedarville. By and large the folks I know on the Cedarville faculty/staff are amazingly fine people. Please, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, the administration at CU is highly restrictive. If you go to school or work there, it’s something you know going in. Is it right? No, in my opinion it’s not. However, it’s something that all those who go to or work for Cedarville are aware of. They made the choice to be there, they should be prepared to abide by the rules there. Also, let us not forget that Dr’s Hoffeditz and Mappes did break university policy by personalizing their attacks on fellow professors. While that in and of itself does not seem to merit termination, it does not leave them without guilt or need of reprimand. Finally, let us all remember that regardless of whether we identify as Christian or not, all who post on here have a prime opportunity to show the respective powers that be at Cedarville what truly respectful and substantive free speech can accomplish. (And, for the record, should you think I have an obligation to Cedarville or align with their views, trust me, nothing could be farther from the truth.I simply subscribe to a little concept called: Grace. Trust me, it’s a nifty thing…)

By Robert

March 30, 2008 10:33 PM | Link to this

Adam’s quote: “Drs Hoffeditz and Mappes did break university policy by personalizing their attacks on fellow professors” Statements like this may impeach the credibility of everything you have written. While just one example, this statement is completely false — the grievance committee found that this was not the case and never happened. Any unprofessional and ill-tempered actions were found to be in the administrations court in every count, hence their recommendation for reinstatement.

By Martha

March 30, 2008 10:42 PM | Link to this

Stephanie has done an incredible job on an ultra-touchy subject. I am fascinated partly because I try to understand the point of view of the fundamentalists even though it doesn’t make sense to me. My mother was Southern Baptist but we went to an American Baptist church. She was not a fundamentalist and always explained creation as something that was put in a framework that people 2,000 years ago could understand. I interpret it as not unlike the parables of Jesus - using literary allegory to make a point. Kind of like the destination is more important than the ride you took to get there. Nonetheless, I do try to understand why many Christians find literal creationism vital to their beliefs. In some ways, this story about Cedarville is more than the sum of its parts. If the professors were terminated unjustly, it doesn’t matter who is “right” about their beliefs. Sometimes people knock the DDN for various reasons, but Stephanie Gottschlich has produced a world-class (and to my estimation flawlessly unbiased) treatise on an issue I would have never have imagined possible in Cedarville.

By Oldprof

March 31, 2008 12:03 AM | Link to this

You know that they regret? Are you certain they’re not simply feigning regret? Meanwhile, I wonder how anyone can claim to be educated while insisting on such untruths as Biblical literacy. The first two chapters of the Bible contradict one another; there are so many contradictions in the many accounts of the crucifixion that it’s impossible to construct a reliable single version of the events. These facts are easily discovered by a little study (for example, http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com ) and the fact that Cedarville claims to provide education, yet cannot admit that these facts render Biblical literacy as a falsehood, ought to be argument enough for them to be refused accreditation—why should federal grant and loan money be available for this ignorance? The fact that the administration doesn’t care to honor its commitments is just more evidence to the lack of integrity in this religious subgroup.

By adam

March 31, 2008 1:09 AM | Link to this

Oldprof, your bile is affecting your judgement. In as much as I can, I respect what you say as it is your opinion and you are most entitled to it. However, I must disagree. If you are quite so learned on Biblical matters, you will be quite aware that the first chapters of Genesis (I assume you are speaking of Genesis when you say the first two chapters of the Bible?) are from two entirely different source documents. (Chapter one is priestly, Chapter 2 is Yahwist.) Of course there are differences, different authors = different interpretations and focus’. Now, with that said, do I agree that Cedarville is wrong to preach literal plenary inspiration to its students? Yes, absolutely. Though I am a Cedarville graduate I do NOT hold to literal inspiration. (I also attend a seminary which does NOT hold to literal plenary inspiration. Just to show that not all Christian schools are “ignorant.”) Is the Bible authoritative as a book of faith? You bet. Is it a history book? Heck no. (Though we have a goodly ammount of backup literature through sources such as Josephus, Philo, and even the gnostic movement.)With that said, before you make a grandiose statement about Cedarville’s accreditation, you might do well to check out Cedarville’s academic reputation outside of the theological realm. (To be succinct, it’s pretty darn good.) However, I will say, I agree with you in that the actions of the administration at Cedarville do not seem to align with what they claim to believe. Though, again, the administration is bound to confidentiality so we would all do well to remember that when casting judgement.

By Adam

March 31, 2008 1:21 AM | Link to this

Robert, Thank you for the correction. I welcome it. My statement was based off of a conversation with a current Cedarville professor who is quite acquainted with the case. (Though that does not make this person flawless by any means.)Again, thank you for the correction!

By Become a Baptist...no thanks

March 31, 2008 8:20 AM | Link to this

Whatever your views of this are, one thing is clear…Baptists sure do seem to fight a lot. Their fights are almost always pride related…”I’m right, and you are wrong.” I have not found that testimony one that is urged in any Biblical text. Shame on both sides for such pride and arrogance.

By Shirley T.

March 31, 2008 8:25 AM | Link to this

Evil, darkness flees to the corners. Kick out the truth, then you don’t have to look at it. Do you know what I mean? You will.

By Abu Dhabi

March 31, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this

I find it disappointing to see that some here are using this situation to level ignorant attacks against Christianity. I pity those who think they’ve debunked Christianity for good by asking where Cain got his wife from. (Hint: Incest is a social construct that wasn’t always condemned) Unfortunately, those who decry Christianity as fairy tales are the same people who respect Tom Cruise for his “beliefs”. They are the same people who believe in reincarnation. They are the same people who are devotees to Francis Crick, one of the men who discovered DNA, who theorized that “aliens” left a ball of primordial goo and started the evolutionary process called life. Let’s save the attacks against Christianity for a different place. What’s going on at Cedarville is truly sad. Not because someone lost his job, but because as Christians our primary goal is to make God look good. We’re stewards of his reputation. People form opinions about God based on the behavior they see in Christians. What is unfortunate is that Cedarville isn’t making God look good to an unbelieving world.

By SAREAM

March 31, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

Jesus said he was the Good Shepherd and that His flock new his voice. Voice equates to sounds/words; His words equate to the Bible. People don’t believe the Bible because it is truth and truth hurts. There is no such thing as a conservative Christian; one either believes the word of God or you don’t.

By Shirley

March 31, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

Thank you SAREAM and Abu Dhabi for your very eloquent and easy to understand comments. This is for those people who think they are smarter than God: Unfortunately, some people didn’t bother to get to know the author of the Bible before attempting to spew their “beliefs” about it. You can’t understand the Bible unless the Spirit of God leads you into understanding. You can’t do anything without the Spirit, even worship God. Don’t worry, that’s in the Bible, too.

By jnull

March 31, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this

y would some worry ?

By jackie

March 31, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this

Y would only a few worry ?don’t sound rite !

By Eric the Equalizer

March 31, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

Stephanie Gottschlich�s report on fundamentalist Baptists firing two Christian professors from a local religious college appeared on the Sunday Metro & State section�s front page of the Columbus Dispatch under the headline �Bible profs� firings leave college unsettled� (Mar. 30). I feel that some comments are in order. The Bible is not God, as even the most strident Bible thumper will confess (usually), so I wonder if Gottschlich�s statement, �But to fundamentalists, questioning the truth of the Bible is blasphemous…� might have been better phrased to read, �… the Bible is sacrilegious.� Merriam-Webster�s online dictionary (www.m-w.com) offers these definitions: first, blasphemy: �the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God… the act of claiming the attributes of deity� and, second, sacrilege �a technical and not necessarily intrinsically outrageous violation (as improper reception of a sacrament) of what is sacred because consecrated to God… gross irreverence toward a hallowed person, place, or thing.� Perhaps that�s splitting hairs. But Gottschlich certainly gave these people too much credit when she wrote, �Fundamentalists take a historical view…� when she should have written �Fundamentalists claim to take a historical view of the Bible�s truth and apply its statements literally.� Their pet doctrine of inerrancy is actually a relatively recent invention spawned by a series of books published in the early 20th Century under the title The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth. Gottschlich continued saying the college �has been fundamentalist, or orthodox, since becoming a Baptist institution in 1953.� More accurate phrasing would have said they�ve been �either fundamentalist or orthodox� since fundamentalism is not orthodoxy (although some fundamentalist probably told Gottschlich otherwise). A key to orthodoxy can be found in survey data published in 2002 by Nashville�s Glenmary Research Center under the title Religious Congregations and Membership in the United States. The center found just over five million religious adherents in our Buckeye State including roughly 150,000 Jews, Bahais, Muslims and Unitarian Universalists. Ohio�s Christians include over 2.2 million Roman Catholics, United Methodists and members of the Presbyterian Church (USA) and the United Church of Christ. Together, these four denominations make up over sixty percent of Ohio�s Christians. My understanding of Roman Catholics is that they teach not scriptural inerrancy but rather papal infallibility in speaking ex cathedra, for example translating into the Magesterium, or the Roman church�s teaching, the Bible�s inspired and inspiring revelations. The United Methodist Church�s fifth Article of Religion, titled �Of the Sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures for Salvation,� states that Methodists believe the Bible contains everything �necessary to salvation� but do not mention the terms �inerrancy� or �infallibility� nor at all imply their concepts. The Presbyterian Church (USA) describes the Bible as �a collection… that together tell[s] the story of a group of people bound by a common faith in God� but, again, say nothing about inerrancy. The United Church of Christ�s Constitution says the UCC �looks to the Word of God in the Scriptures, and to the presence and power of the Holy Spirit to prosper its creative and redemptive work in the world� and �claims as its own the faith of the historic Church expressed in the ancient creeds and reclaimed in the basic insights of the Protestant Reformers.� The UCC�s 1981 Statement of Faith makes no reference to inerrancy or infallibility. The ageless faith of Christians is expressed every time congregations recite the ancient creeds, principally the Nicene Creed and the Apostle�s Creed. The Apostles� Creed, which Christians have been reciting since the 700s, makes no mention of the Bible. Neither does the earliest version of the Nicene Creed.

By crazy right

March 31, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this

baptists=hypocrites�

By Bannerman

March 31, 2008 5:35 PM | Link to this

I cannot believe the ignorance put forward by some of the “Cedarville people” here. How about looking at the other side of the coin, and displaying some common sense and love for those in position of authority? http://cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com/

By Jeremy Sherwood

March 31, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this

I was taught by Hoffeditz in my New Testament class at CU, so I know him personally. He is a phenomenal professor and teacher, passionate as they come. But as passionate about his teaching as he is, he is also passionate about his beliefs—to the point where he would openly ridicule co-workers, Cedarville administration, and anyone else that questioned him. His tendency to do this was divisive, to say the least. The majority of the campus at this time doesn’t even know about the issues going on, nor do they know about the controversies popping up in newspapers recently. Also, given the fact that Hoffeditz would slam fellow faculty in class, in front of students, it seems to me that these “theological issues” are just cheap cover-ups to hide a much deeper personal struggle of bitterness within Hoffeditz himself. Cedarville had strong grounds to do what they did, aside from the cover-ups and lies.

By Anonymous student

March 31, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this

As a current student of Cedarville, I find it extremely disappointing that this is the story that is making the front page headlines of the DDN. Why not talk about the $25,000 we are collectively raising to build a home to house 12 orphans in sub-Saharan Africa? Why not talk about the countless students that voluntarily gave up their spring break in order to serve on a missions trip either here in the U.S. or somewhere abroad. Why not talk about the fact that US News & World Report ranked Cedarville 3rd out of all Baccalaureate Colleges in the Midwest Region? Yes - don�t get me wrong, this situation apparently deserves attention due to the severe controversy it has caused not only on CU�s campus and now in the public�s eye; I just find it extremely unfortunate that we have chosen to focus and bring into the spotlight the negative happenings on a campus on which so much good has happened over the years. I want some answers just like everyone else does, I just wish that we would at the very least remember the good that Cedarville does. As a Christian, I find it unfortunate that this message of distrust/hatred/etc. is being displayed to non-Christians. It definitely sends the wrong signal to those that don�t have a relationship with Christ - I don�t believe that this situation accurately represents the way we, as Christians, should act, think, or behave. So on behalf of all Cedarville students, I apologize for the negativity that is being shed on this situation that has potential negative impact on people�s views of Christianity. I urge you to keep in mind that every single organization/business/etc. has their own problems; please just at least allow yourself to take into consideration the good of Cedarville and not necessarily just the bad.

By Freedom of Speech

March 31, 2008 7:20 PM | Link to this

These students are adults and yet you expect them to follow the administration like dumb sheep? Did Jesus not say to test the spirit? 1 John 4:1. I suggest you listen to the recording, especially 1:17 into the recording. Bob Milliman berates a student yet you expect people to treat facalty such as this with “common sense and love for those in position of authority”? Students now come from another generation. A generation where they do not “love” professors that say things about their character, especially when students are the paying customers. If you don’t have students, you do not have a university. 1:17 into the recording Bob states that students recording meetings is “unethical, unprofessional, unchristian, illegal”. Kudos to these students for having the strength to challenge him and the university! Illegal recording? Maybe Bob should Google laws in Ohio concerning recordings before he plays lawyer and teaches information to students that is inaccurate. I think the biggest slap in the face is when Bob tells the student on this tape that students such as he “demonstrated you don’t have the maturity to handle these things”. Is Bob a licensed psychologist too?

By Freedom of Speech

March 31, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this

http://dodownload.filefront.com/9889484//7ab4e4ba7aaddb6de3fe4998fc80ca267771fda491af41290a2e5702b00661d041c373375eb6189f

By Frank

March 31, 2008 7:33 PM | Link to this

“Why not talk about the $25,000 we are collectively raising to build a home to house 12 orphans in sub-Saharan Africa? Why not talk about the countless students that voluntarily gave up their spring break in order to serve on a missions trip either here in the U.S. or somewhere abroad.” Because there is a small but really nasty group of people who want to see this argument and issue stay alive for as long as possible. It’s basically ‘if i am going down, they are going down with me’ Just read some of the comments here. People encouraging disrespect of professors, they claim there is nothing wrong with secretly recording a good-faith conversation, etc. This is the kind of garbage the school has to deal with anymore.

By Freedom of Speech

March 31, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this

Yes Frank, ignore wrong doing because it will go away and it doesn’t effect you. After all you are not one of the two men who lost their job. I suppose you think Martin Luther was a “really nasty” man too. I think it is wonderful that Cedarville collectively raised $25,000 to build a home to house 12 orphans in sub-Saharan Africa however, that is not the issue, is it? The recording would have been junk if there was nothing on there to start with. I never encouraged disrespect of professors, only to question. Besides it looks like the SOME of the administration does enough disrespecting for both sides.

By Kevin

March 31, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this

AS a current student of CU, I can say that I haven’t been brainwashed or influenced negatively by my profs. Some of them, who are directly involved in the controversy have provided a great example for how to deal with trials. The individuals who run this school are not simpletons, they are God fearing individuals who are trying to provide a place to grow both in professional areas and in our Faith. For those of you who are alumni or are parents of students, please please take what you read from places like cedarvillesituation.com with a grain of salt, the authors’ methods are not those intended to resolve or correct, but rather to divide and bring anger. Please, those of you who are on the outside looking in, be reasonable and charitable to the men of integrity that are leading this school. Cedarville is an excellent school with high moral integrity.

By Jeremiah

March 31, 2008 11:02 PM | Link to this

Has anyone read a copy of the Chronicle of Higher Education? I was surprised to find that an article was written concerning Cedarville in March. I found some very interesting facts while reading the Chronicle, The Dayton Daily News, and Cedarville�s own website. Here are a few things that I think we should remember. Cedarville�s grievance committee consisting of faculty peers found in favor of Dr. Hoffeditz (he should not have been terminated). I think that they would be reliable! (Chronicle March 7, 2008) Also, contrary to the University�s assurance that �…the process has been conducted with great care and diligence..�and that the terminations came �..only after every other option has been exhausted…�, the grievance committee found that there were no �written reprimands, warnings, or plans of correction.� (Chronicle March 7, 2008 and Cedarville�s FAQ: Recent Personnel Decisions). The bulk of the committee�s criticism was against the Cedarville�s administration. (Chronicle March 7, 2008) Bob Milliman discussed confidential personnel matters with a student. Why did Bob talk for nearly 2 hours with a student about confidential matters? In most places of business an employee would get fired for discussing personnel matters. If the Administration has nothing to hide, why are they so upset about this recording and the student? (Listen to the recording its quite informative) Bob also told this student in the recording that they wanted to fire the Professors but were concerned about the fall-out and issues for re-accreditation. Now the school denies that it had anything to do about the re-accreditation, etc. Were they lying in the recording or are they lying now? (Recording and Dayton Daily News) Perhaps the most unprofessional and surprising piece to this story is that Cedarville is not following their own rules. The Administration �commanded the panel to deliver all records of the hearings to the office of the president…despite rules governing the grievance process that say that no one outside the panel should have access to the tapes and transcripts of the panel�s meetings.� They now have the only copy of the grievance process. Why would they commandeer this if there was nothing to hide? (Chronicle March 7, 2008). While Cedarville has been a great school and has done many wonderful things as stated by many people in this blog, how long will it be great with leaders like this?

By Ex GARBC Church Member

April 1, 2008 2:42 AM | Link to this

As I read this story I am reminded of the half-joke that was spoken often when I was a child, “make like a Baptist Church and split.” How sad it is that people’s careers, reputations, and young minds will be so damaged over such trivial issues. Ten years from now no one will even remember what this brew-haha was all about. I am a graduate of one of CU’s GARBC sister college, and after 20-plus years I still have not yet recovered. Fundamentalists do such incredible soul damage with their absolutism, their false piety, their demand for adherence to “orthodoxy” (which despite what they would tell you is always a moving target), and the unending lists of standards for doctrinal purity. How sad that in these debates love, compassion, and tolerance are thrown out the window. These institutions become so immersed in their arguments over the particulars that they lose sight of the teachings of Christ. “They will know we are Christians by our love?” Hardly.

By Truth

April 1, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

“Jeremy Sherwood” is not a student at Cedarville University and is not listed in the private alumni directory under that name or any other name. That fake post is simply more evidence of the private army of yes-men working on behalf of the administration at Cedarville University, distributing disinformation about anyone in opposition to their theological views in order to level the playing field. Mappes and Hoffeditz NEVER spoke against any professors in or out of class — let us remember who the real professionals are and why the grievance panel ruled against the administration.

By Fake Truth

April 1, 2008 11:00 PM | Link to this

That is interesting because I couldn’t find anyone named “truth” in the alumni directory either!

By Truth is Truth

April 2, 2008 12:04 AM | Link to this

Mr. Fake Truth, no one can pull ANYTHING over on you! Your comment doesn�t make sense, nor is it a clever discovery. The above bloger doesn�t claim to be a Cedarville student as �Jeremy Sherwood� has done. Perhaps some reading comprehension classes are in order? However, from the sound of things you may have to take them at Bob Jones.

By Truth Faker

April 2, 2008 12:08 AM | Link to this

Milliman claims to care for these men and the students, but the TRUTH is pretty clear in the tape. You can see that he was preparing for the student to quote him (by basically saying any ‘interpretation’ would simply be just that—his interpretation of what milliman said. But what milliman didn’t prepare for was a recording of his actual words.

By More True

April 2, 2008 7:37 AM | Link to this

Consider taking a few minutes and read: http://cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com very interesting!

By Freedom of Speech

April 2, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this

Interesting site, who is the author and administrator?

By Shirley

April 2, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this

TO: Eric the Equalizer and “Progressive” Professors—If you don’t believe the Word of God, the Bible, (“the Word was made flesh and dwelled among us”) don’t attempt to teach it and make yourself look ignorant. Don’t call yourself a believer, either. You are neither a teacher nor a believer. There is nothing progressive about stupidity. If you simply do what the Word teaches, ask the Spirit of God to guide you in understanding, you won’t get confused and become “progressive.”

By Don't Bother

April 2, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this

Don’t bother asking, you’ll never be told. Those sympathetic to the administration at CU operate in total secrecy because they’d hate for their reputation to be held responsible to their peers once they are eventually proven to be on the wrong side.

By Shirley

April 2, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

Hey Kevin, a house divided cannot stand. Uh, just because someone comes in with their “progressive” smarter than God approach, does not mean you shouldn’t stand up for the TRUTH, or the WORD OF GOD is not capable of being anything but the TRUTH, God cannot lie, holy men of old were led by the Spirit of God and wrote down the Word of God. Okay, you either believe it or you don’t, and no amount of trying to talk over people just to hear yourself talk will ever cover up your ignorance.

By Freedom of Speech

April 2, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

Interesting site, who is the author and administrator? I tend to take information more seriously on web pages when I know who creates and manages them. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

By Shirley

April 2, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this

TO: Ex GARBC Church Member, how loving is it to allow someone to dwell in mud when they could actually KNOW God and HIS TRUTH, the WORD OF GOD. How can you say it is unloving to tell the truth? Let me know when you find yourself on that wide path (you know what I’m talkin’ ‘bout?)

By Question for More Truth

April 2, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this

Interesting site, who is the author and administrator? I tend to take information more seriously on web pages when I know who creates and manages them. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

By Frank

April 2, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this

The love displayed by baptists in this forum is astounding. cedarville needs to abandon the denomination completely and become an independent christian university. it’s baptist in name only anways since most students do not want to or do not have that kind of background. leave the hate behind!

By Jenni

April 2, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

Again, DDN readers never cease to amaze me the way they can get off topic in their comments. I suggest you all hop in your cars and drive across the Ohio River to visit the Creation Museum.

By Jeremiah

April 2, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

Frank, won’t removing “baptists” from the University’s name hurt funding?

By Shirley

April 2, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this

And I suggest you sit down and read a good book, or books, “The Bible” actually read it word for word. Ask the Spirit of God to guide you in understanding. I know it gets boring sometimes with all the begottens, and you might have to get your dictionary or concordance out once in a while, but read every single word. Forget what you have been told about the Bible by so-called “scholars” or people who think too much of themselves. Honor God by actually reading what He has to say before you teach or spew your opinions about how He really doesn’t mean what He says. Tell God (it’s called praying) you are sorry for adding or taking away from his Word. Then you will have a chance to redeem yourselves.

By More Truth

April 2, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

Read: http://cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com/ Though I agree that it would be nice to have a name w/ the site … Bannerman will have to do for now.

By Question for More Truth

April 2, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

Why doesn’t this person share their name? I have found that all of the other websites dealing with this issue have provided names. Why read something so in-depth and time consuming if there is not an author or someone to account for and defend the information provided? This makes me think that someone in the administration is running the page.

By Frank

April 2, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

It’s not the administration. it’s the government. they have black helicopters too.

By Question for More Truth

April 2, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this

Good one Frank, you got me! I am very glad to see that you provide educated and adult like responses.

By Frank

April 2, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this

You are asking for it. you are making ridiculous and irresponsible comments. what evidence do you have to prove what you said? why are you focusing on who is writing instead of what was written?

By Matt

April 2, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this

Whoever is posting as “Question for More Truth” why are you not revealing your own identity? You are a hypocrite to demand that someone else posts online under a real name while you post under an alias. To use your own words, I tend to take information more seriously on web pages when I know who creates and manages them.

By Shirley

April 2, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

TO: the student JEREMY—I’ll bet your professor was defending the Word of God. Too bad a so-called christian college kicks out professors for defending the TRUTH. Did you know Satan is the god of this world? Looks like he is the god of this college, too. Who controls what is taught at your college, is it based on God’s Word, or man’s interpretations of God’s Word?

By Shirley

April 2, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

verbatim: “We did not want to take these actions before our accreditation visit because we felt … because, you know, if everyone was stirred up there’s going to be this problem with accreditation,” Milliman says in the recording. “We were told if you don’t issue contracts before the visit there could be trouble. (Faculty) knew we weren’t going to cause a furor with terminating people before the NCA came.” AND “When asked about Milliman’s statements in the recording, Cedarville said in its e-mail to the Dayton Daily News that the NCA visit did not affect the timing of the personnel decisions.” Okay, is it just me or is someone lying here?

By Question for More Truth

April 2, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this

Matt, please read again what I wrote. I never asked you to give me your name and personal information. I also never �demanded� that the person running the cedarvilleliver provide me with their name. What I did write was �Why doesn�t this person share their name?� Also the quote you took from my blog doesn�t fit since I never provided information. As for �Frank� and his treat �You are asking for it�, what are you going to do to me? Besides didn�t you just write several lines up to �leave the hate behind�? Sharing my name is irrelevant since I am not posting anything that I claim to be factual; I am simply asking questions. In response to your question �why are you focusing on who is writing instead of what was written?� let me ask you something, when was the last time you wrote or accepted a paper without citations?

By Frank

April 2, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

“Frank, won�t removing �baptists� from the University�s name hurt funding?” Good point but higher education should not be about funding but should focus on high quality learning. As numbers of baptists go down at Cedarville i hope the school becomes less dependent on people who write checks and will use tuition mostly to drive operating costs. The school should be a Christian school not a Baptist school (with a capital b)

By Question for More Truth

April 2, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this

Matt, please read again what I wrote. I never asked you to give me your name and personal information. I also never “demanded” that the person running the cedarvilleliver provide me with their name. What I did write was “Why doesn’t this person share their name?” Also the quote you took from my blog doesn’t fit since I never provided information. As for “Frank” and his treat “You are asking for it”, what are you going to do to me? Besides didn’t you just write several lines up to “leave the hate behind”? Sharing my name is irreverent since I am not posting anything that I claim to be factual; I am simply asking questions. In response to your question “why are you focusing on who is writing instead of what was written?” let me ask you something, when was the last time you wrote or accepted a paper without citations?

By Question for More Truth

April 2, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this

sorry I meant irrelevant not irreverent.

By Barnes

April 2, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this

The author of Cedarville Liver will not divulge who they are because it would ruin their reputation to be known as the webmaster of a fraudulent website. Half the arguments on that site are improperly based on the false notion that those who were terminated were “at-will” employees — they were tenured. Huge difference. The rest of the arguments are based on three student statements that cannot be verified with actual names (see a pattern yet?); two were anonymous from this blog and the third comes from the engineer quoted in the Dayton Daily article, the same individual who well tell you that he was misquoted in the paper and doesn’t believe Hoffeditz or Mappes ever spoke about anyone while in class and were both professional in their actions. I guess when you’re postmodern you can simply create new evidence in its absence. It is infinitely amazing to see how fans of the CU administration will try so desperately to level the playing field by alleging that those who were terminated behave with same level of incompetency as the administrators. I think they forgot who, at the end of the day, is actually responsible for the reputation and direction of the school. Whoops!

By Jeremiah

April 2, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this

Thank you Frank for making me aware that this is a formal blog and that the word �Baptist� should always start with a capital letter. By the way you might want to remember what you are teaching others since 12 lines up you wrote �baptist� using all lower case letters as well.

By It's not just the University

April 2, 2008 7:15 PM | Link to this

imho There seems to be more issues in Cedarville than just at the University: The Village is poorly managed. Just take a drive through town and then take a drive through other Ohio towns with universities the same size and you’ll notice the difference immediately. Also, the church associated with the University has some serious issues after bringing in a pastor from California that a large percentage of the members didn’t agree with. Overall it seems the leadership of the university and entities controlled by people affiliated with Cedarville University (the university, Grace Baptist Church, the Village mayor and council with the mayor and 5 of 6 Council members affiliated with the university and/or the church) are imploding after several years of building up animosity inside and outside those entities. It’s too bad because the other 99% of people in Cedarville are wonderful people and really want to see the community prosper. Maybe it will begin to really prosper if the people remove some of the dead wood in leadership roles at the university, the church and the Village. Let’s hope things change for the better and soon!

By Zach

April 3, 2008 2:27 AM | Link to this

Shirley— Here is the deal. I would love to have a professor teach God’s word—unfortunately, the way he teaches it is going to be his interpretation of it. You said that Satan is the god of this world—do you not think that he is going to do whatever he can to get in the middle of Christians learning more about their God? Do you think he’s gonna give up just because they are reading the Bible? Think of any two Godly men you know. Really Godly men. Ones that you respect, and ones that teach the Bible, as you say. Now, ask yourself, “Do they agree on every single theological and doctrinal point of the Bible?” Answer the question honestly—you will find the answer to be ‘no.’ But, if they were teaching the Bible, not their interpretation of it, there would be nothing to argue about, would there? Wouldn’t it all just be kicks and giggles, with no arguing? Or do you think that the God of the universe, perfect and holy in every way, desired for us to dig to know Him? After all, He is above us, and His ways are not our ways—which means we won’t always understand it. And when we don’t, it is interpretation. The thing to remember here is that interpretation is dependent on faith. The Holy Spirit reveals truth to us, and we must have the faith, and the humility, to recognize the wrong from the right. The fundamentalist side really bugs me on this. If you can understand all biblical truth, than why is there so much debate? Why is there so much anger, hatred? It’s because we don’t agree, some of us are wrong, and we don’t want to let go of our pride long enough to recognize that one small fact. We are not perfect, nor will our doctrine ever be. It needs to be amended—cautiously, but amended nonetheless. If it is not, are we not saying that we have it perfect? Who are we to say we are perfect? This is not about inventing truth—it is about having faith in the Spirit to reveal it to us, and having the sensitivity to Him to recognize it. The biggest problem that people have with Cedarville is that they are reading newspaper articles that were spurred on by Professors and people who are angry about what is going on. People are not hearing the whole story. They don’t want to—they want to hear the truth how they ‘want’ to hear it. Not how it really is. I wonder if when I get to heaven if God is going to look at me and say “Well done, Zach, you completely ignored what Paul said about dividing my Bride, the church, and spurred on your own agenda to get what you want.” I would hope he would say, “You chased after me, selflessly, trying to know me more and more, because you realized that your place was on earth, a sinner saved by grace, trying to show me to people. You didn’t push them away with your agenda’s, and what you wanted. But you drew them to Me.” I’m not there, I’m not perfect, and I won’t ever be—but grace will lead me through the times that I fail, and spur me on to not make the same mistakes again. And seriously, you are wasting your time if you are going to pick apart every word that I said—which some will do, inevitably. Once again, I’m not perfect. I fail. We all do.

By Branson

April 3, 2008 8:19 AM | Link to this

Mr. Seelye your comments are good and constructive, just remember that the reason why this ‘debate’ has turned into arguing instead of mere disagreement is because it began to be mixed with unethical and illegal actions by the administration that led to a mere silencing of any opposition. People who simply ‘disagree’ were removed and labeled as divisive and false rumors were started that they were troublemakers. While this is all unfortunate tThe truth will all come out eventually, so just keep praying and keep watching.

By Shirley

April 3, 2008 8:34 AM | Link to this

Hi Zach, I appreciate your reply. To answer your question, “If you can understand all biblical truth, than why is there so much debate?” The Holy Spirit will lead you in understanding, but it is like a puzzle that we put together. Faith in God has to be an individual thing, and everyone must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. (I don’t think that professors who are teaching the so-called “progressive” approach fear God, they don’t believe His Word, and they shouldn’t be teaching it—that is my pet peeve.) I believe that one who walks in the light they are given by God, are not going to “know” the same things that God has revealed to someone else, because it is revealed as the Spirit reveals it. I remember asking God why Mary M. wasn’t able to touch Jesus after his death, but doubting Thomas was allowed. Did God prefer men over women? Later when I was reading the Bible, I found the blood would be contaminated if touched by man. Thomas didn’t touch Jesus until after Jesus offered his sacrifice to God, and then returned, and there was no blood, when Thomas touched Him. God did not prefer men over women, and Almighty God reached down to little ‘ol me and answered my question. That is the same “Spirit” these high-necked professors should use when teaching about God.

By Shirley

April 3, 2008 8:52 AM | Link to this

Branson’s words ring true. Institutions that are suppose to be teaching about God set up boundaries on what is allowed to be believed, and you can’t make God’s Word fit your little box. Also, don’t add to or take away from the Word of God. Satan is definitely causing havoc in all of the churches with his “progressive” God doesn’t mean what He says doctrine. You will progress yourselves right out of your salvation. How can you “know” you are saved if you really aren’t sure God means what He says????

By Shirley

April 3, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this

I want to address: “You said that Satan is the god of this world�do you not think that he is going to do whatever he can to get in the middle of Christians learning more about their God? Do you think he�s gonna give up just because they are reading the Bible?” YES, YES I BELIEVE THAT SATAN WILL INCREASE HIS DECEPTIVENESS AND TRY TO HURT THE CHURCH AS MUCH AS he IS ABLE. THE CLOSER I TRY TO GET TO GOD, THE MORE SATAN FIGHTS ME. THE BEST WAY TO GET ME TO PRAY FOR SOMEONE IS FOR THEM TO ATTACK ME, THEN I HAVE TO PRAY FOR THEM. The deceptiveness, the lack of love, the kicking out of the 2 professors because they actually teach God’s Word is true and not questionable, ALL OF THIS COMES FROM THE SAME PLACE, GUYS. My words may seem harsh, but believe me I don’t want to see anyone go to hell.

By truthis

April 3, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this

Branson … take some time and read http://www.cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com/ Don’t just believe everything you’ve been reading or hearing.

By Shirley

April 3, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this

Maybe this college should drop the “Christian” part of the name and say what you really are doing is teach anti-christ. Who do you think you are kidding? You can rationalize all you want. Someone lied about the timing of the firings: on one hand you had every intention of honoring their contracts, then firing them a few months later and recorded on tape: “(Faculty) knew we weren�t going to cause a furor with terminating people before the NCA came.” I went over to your blogspot and read through about half of it…yeah, you should drop the “Christian” part.

By Shirley

April 3, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this

ONE MORE THING, VERBATIM FROM THE END OF YOUR BLOG: “Surprisingly, nobody asked the question “Whatever happened to Sin?” It may be legal in Ohio to secretly record a conversation between two parties, but is there a difference between legal and wrong? I haven’t seen a single self-righteous critic so far condemning the recording.” OKAY, WHY DO THE CHEATERS ALWAYS ACCUSE THE VICTIM OF THEIR DECEIT OF SHAMEFULLY FOLLOWING THEM? THERE WOULD BE NO “CHEATERS” TV SHOW IF THERE WEREN’T ANY CHEATERS OUT THERE. No one would care about the recording if there weren’t any lies on it.

By Fark

April 3, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

Shirley, with all due respect can you please spare us your self-righteous drivel? Your attitude is what turns people off to christianity. To repeat the very first comment, you all sound like a bunch of religious wackos bickering. if they�re not attacking everyone else they�re attacking each other.

By Brandon

April 3, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

I hear the sincerity of the positions which have been expressed, but respectfully, I must also say that the harsh, caustic manner of some of these comments betrays a lack of understanding of the most basic, fundamental teaching of Jesus: that our love for God, and the example of his love for us, demands that we demonstrate that same gracious, selfless love to our neighbor. As Jesus said, �…Thou shalt love the Lord, thy God, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, this is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it, Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.� Matthew 22:37-40 Please hear me: You cannot presume to be standing for truth while ignoring, at the same time, clear biblical principles concerning how you should relate and respond to others (see Matthew 18:15-35). My prayer is that individuals will seek an alternate, more productive, more biblical way of expressing their concerns than posting on this website. Please, I�m begging you … go to those personally with whom you have a dispute and seek reconciliation. To do any less is not consistent with the clear testimony of the Scripture.

By Shirley

April 3, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this

Don’t shoot me, I’m just the piano player. I have as much a right to express my opinion as you high-falutin’ liars. I’m just tired of your crap.

By Brian

April 3, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this

Good for you Shirley! I think many of us that read this blog will agree that if you disagree with the administration, you are automatically unchristian and wrong. Bob Milliman even said those exact words to a student concerning a taped conversation. Who cares if the student taped the conversation? If the Cedarville administration leads their lives just like Christ, what do they have to worry about? This tape could have been used as an excellent example how Christ-like people handle difficult situations. Unfortunately not every Christian behaves like Christ. Brandon, Cedarville’s grievance committee consisting of faculty peers found in favor of Dr. Hoffeditz (he should not have been terminated). Some are trying to seek reconciliation.

By Hochman

April 3, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this

Those CU Liver articles are hilarious and very poorly written. I wonder if the secret author ever realized that contracts exist for more purposes than mere employment, or that even “for life” tenured employees at nearly all institutions still sign annual contracts to confirm present pay, position, title, etc? No, likely not, considering how the same author also cites Supreme Court cases in elementary fashion (wrong jurisdiction for primary persuasion, lack of access to legal databases for state authority, and on and on….) The icing on the cake is the (almost) hilarious fashion in which the case citations are improperly formatted and presented. Who is the author kidding? I always get a good laugh�when the uninformed/uneducated/insecure really think they know how the law actually works and play pretend attorney in order to nurse their fragile ego. These societal outcasts typically refer to themselves as “we” and remain anonymous to create a sense of intimidation and legitimacy that otherwise would not exist if they were actually identifiable. In sum: thanks for the laughs, keep up the (bad) work! Maybe one day you can impress the jury with your vapid intelligence in Sesame Street Court of Law! :)

By Cedar Cliff Schools a Problem Too!

April 3, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this

The Cedar Cliff “Public” School system has this Baptist problem too. The HS/MS Principal’s husband is on the faculty at CU and they are members of Grace Baptist Church. The Superintendent attends Grace too. Many of the faculty & administration are members of Grace as well. Another front for the Baptist assult is on the school board. Three of the five members are also members of Grace Baptist Church. For the most part this “public” school is at the mercy of these very Controlling, Coniving, and just down right mean bunch of people. (Baptist Christians) Anyone that disagrees with this group of people is run out of town. It’s really amazing to me that all the problems with this so called “public” school have been kept out of the papers. There have been law suits, accusations of abuse, and many other situations that I would think the DDN would love to bring to light for this part of Ohio. As with CU the “Public” School system seems to have some pull to keep their messes covered up. Believe me when I say that no faculty member & particulary POTTER the HS/MS principal are NEVER in the wrong. Problems are always due to the student, parent, solar system out of alignment, etc. It’s so frustrating to see all these “Good Christians” getting away with such bad things. While the Bible teaches that we are all sinners, the group running this school have skipped over or forgotten this part of their Bibles. Please DDN go across the street and air out the Cedar Cliff School districts dirty laundry.

By Frank

April 3, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this

hochman are you that desperate to grasp straws that you are critivising the STYLE of a BLOG? are you laughing that hard that you fell in the gutter?

By Hochman

April 3, 2008 8:24 PM | Link to this

Duly noted Frank, perspective is always key. Thank you.

By Joshua

April 3, 2008 11:59 PM | Link to this

You know what’s funny about being an impressionable young Cedarville student? None of this “controversy” has affected my daily experience being here. I’ve been in all but 1 of the required Bible gen eds as well as a teaching and interpreting class, and never have i been dissuade by anything my teachers have said. Actually, I take that back, the one class i disliked was taught by one of the professors let go. And i grew up conservative Baptist. GARBC to the hilt.

By Shirley

April 4, 2008 8:18 AM | Link to this

You would be better off if you would just admit you were wrong and move on… Remember Bill Clinton wouldn’t admit he did something wrong…and it’s technically not sex, right? Who did he deceive? How about all the youngsters that now think its okay to do it, it’s not sex, that what Pres Clinton says. That’s his legacy. Okay, a lie is a lie, admit it, and move on, or it will never go away. It will just get infected and erupt in an open blister.

By truthis

April 4, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this

“…. both David Warren and I agreed that there has been no violation of the University Doctrinal Statement by anyone within the School of Biblical and Theological Studies.” Read more at: http://www.cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com/

By Shirley

April 4, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

Q: How do we get from dismissal over professionalism to articles written on the topic of “truth and certainty?” A: Perhaps there’s a sense of unfair play here. What is the true intent, what is at the heart is the truth. Were they dismissed due to unprofessionalism, or due to a sturdy, unbending, uncompromising, undeniable defense of the Faith? When is it appropriate to speak the Truth? When do you find it necessary to call out those things that are adverse, causing confusion in the Church? Should you limit the Truth? Is it appropriate to defend the outcome and forget the way you got there? If it is allowed to continue this way, you won’t recognize the result as the fruit of your labors.

By Gary

April 4, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this

http://www.cedarville.edu/academics/avp/truth/trusteemessage.cfm It’s over. I really would like to see the grievance committee’s recommendations. From Dr. Hoffeditz and Dr. Bartholemew it sounds as if their findings were completely anti-administration, with Dr. Barth claiming “18 out of 19 anti-administration”. Apparently not.

By What a Joke

April 4, 2008 9:58 PM | Link to this

No answers, just fluff, promises and assurance of no drift. Nothing on the “certainty v assurance” debate, nothing that answers the content of Milliman’s secret statements, no comment on the attendance drop and the alumni donor plunge. What a controlled environment, that school is falling to pieces.

By truthis

April 4, 2008 11:05 PM | Link to this

What a joke? What a Joke! You have no idea what you are talking about! You believe what you want to, while others will believe the truth! http://cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com/

By Concern About Cedar Cliff

April 4, 2008 11:28 PM | Link to this

Mrs. Potter, the middle school/high school principle is the main problem at Cedar Cliff. She personally gives detentions and Saturday schools for things NOT done on purpose by the kids. Every human makes unintentional mistakes. Punishing kids with detentions and Saturday school for unintentional mistakes doesn’t help a kid become more responsible. Instead it make a kid, and the parents of the kid, rebel. Saturday school is for kids who intentionally act up. Also, Mrs. Potter, giving kids detentions because there aren’t enough seats on the bus for the field trip that’s for the kids who didn’t get detentions for the semester is kind of stupid. What kind of adult are you to act like that? You should resign asap so our kids can have a principle they can respect. Respect is earned, not demanded. The purpose of the field trip was to reward the kids without detentions, not to screw them over because you didn’t have enough room on the bus. Sadly, the kids and parents affected by your insane actions on a daily basis are too scared to face you because of the repercusions that might affect their kids for the rest of their school years. Cedarville is very, very affected by the Baptists in town, of whom I am one. We need to clean up our act and become grown ups. The University Trustees need to stop dancing around things and clean them up. The Village Mayor and 5 of the 6 council members (the 6th one is new so we’ll let him off the hook for now) need to resign. People with the know how on bringing new businesses to town and fixing up the downtown need to be voted in. Twenty years of St Clair and Phipps is twenty too many. Compare the Village to other college towns in Ohio and you’ll easily see that the Baptist leadership has left the Village in the dark ages. And yes, Grace Baptist, your deacons and “new” senior pastor have a lot of apologies to make to a lot of people in the church, to a lot of members who have left the church and to the community. Bottom line folks: “Everything rises and falls on leadership” and so far as I can see the Baptists currently in charge need to go back where they came from and new people who won’t screw over the rest of us need a chance to lead and get things done in a way that doesn’t cause all the pain and suffering that the current Baptist leaders have caused. Now to the Baptists who aren’t jerks (99% of us) and the rest of the Cedarville Community: You have a job to do and this period of time may be the only chance you ever have to let your voice be heard. You have to speak up. You have to tell the school board you’ll recall them or vote them out if Mrs. Potter isn’t fired. You have to tell the Mayor and his five lackies that they need to step aside or you’ll recall them or vote them out. Four council seats are up for election in 1 1/2 years - encourage people with real world experience to run. Unhappy members of Grace, ex-members of Grace, as well as community members who have been offended by the way Grace’s leadership has handled things over the years…deacons and Sr pastors can also be removed. Change for Changes Sake isn’t always good, but any change in leadership at Grace, the Village and the University would be good. Speak up, step up, or continue to get squashed!

By cedarville is my home

April 5, 2008 8:23 PM | Link to this

no one is forcing you to stay if you’re so unhappy.

By NazareneForEver

April 5, 2008 8:55 PM | Link to this

I’m just trying to find out why David Hoffeditz was fired. They can’t say anything? They couldn’t even counsel David on his wretched ways at Cedarville University, and try to salvage this poor human being at the University which obviously epitomizes perfect people? Did Dr. Hoffeditz even have a warning or presumption of innocence until proven guilty. What kind of people are running Cedarville? A judgement without a trial or presentation of accusor to the accused? Sounds like Nazi Germany with with a cross instead of a swastika, with the Eagle on top being the Administration. Has anyone mentioned that Dr. Hoffeditz and others fired were harrased by University officials several years before they were fired? No, those folks don’t want to know the truth. They want to live in their make believe world with make believe people while good, honest, morale folk’s careers are ruined by a few that wish to obtain ultimate power. The Trustee’s don’t want to lose their cushy position. Why, their kids may not get a free ticket to Cedarville if they show any condescension. I listened to the recording that was made of Dr. Milliman. What an air of arrogance and meglamania. If he worked for my company I would fire him in the first week. The last laugh will be when enough people get fed up and send their kids to a University that respects the rights of individuals and follow the proper procedures of their own bylaws. I pity the Administration at Cedarville.

By Concern About Everything Cedarville

April 5, 2008 10:49 PM | Link to this

Hey “Cedarville Is My Home”, if you don’t think Cedarville as a whole has issues then you’re living with blinders on. You may want to read a book like “From Good to Great.” Yes, Cedarville is an okay place to live if you don’t care about a dead downtown and really poor leadership for years in the Village. I mean, if ya like living in the 1950’s then it’s good enough for ya I guess. BUT, those of us trying to make things better will stay and keep chipping away until you take off your blinders and your rose colored glasses and realize the reality of how GREAT a place Cedarville could be. Stop settling…Fire Potter; remove Phipps, St Clair, and the other dead weight on Council; bring in a Sr Pastor at Grace and deacons at Grace that won’t screw over their members; fire MilliVanilli (CU’s academic VP); bring in Trustees who aren’t “yes men” and are willing to dig into and fix the lack of character prevelent on CU’s campus. Stop settling…This place could be Great! How about you move so we can move forward and have a place we can be proud of instead of embarrased for? We’ll start a moving fund for you Monday.

By Cedars Website for Campus Only

April 5, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this

Why is the Cedars, the CU student newspaper at Cedarsonline.com, no longer available to the public? Is it because a Cedarville prof and a Cedarville student wrote pro-gay articles? (Gay marriage is okay and should be allowed is what one of the articles said.) What else is being written in Cedars that is not for public reading? It seems there are more things going on at CU than we’re being told about. There’s a real breakdown and it begins at the top with the President and the Trustees. What do alumni, students, parents, and donors need to do to get the attention of these people and get the changes needed to preserve the integrity of the university? So far no one is listening. It’s time to turn up the heat.

By Brittney B.

April 5, 2008 11:24 PM | Link to this

The fireworks are about ready to start. I hope everyone likes fireworks. Watch the people that lit the fuses get burned. Justice will be served.

By Nothing Settled Without Lawsuit

April 6, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this

Brittney B, Who lit the fuses? At Cedarville University, nothing will be resolved without a lawsuit. You may be too young to remember when Mr. Brown was killed when the campus water tower blew up, but because of lawyers and insurance nothing was resolved until Mrs. Brown sued the College. It will be the same here. The trustees, president, and avp will have to be sued. Then this will be settled out of court and the public will still never know what happened. By the way, there were several other profs who didn’t have their contracts renewed around the time all of this was going on. They were also all fundamentalists and I believe that three of them went to the same GARBC church in Xenia. The firings are only what people on the outside of campus know about. It’s what’s on the inside that matters more and it’s pretty much rotten to the core…

By Truethis

April 6, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

Ken: You need to move on. You were fired from your job, get over it and your life will be much better.

By TrendThis

April 6, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this

“Truethis”, No Ken here. Just a group of people who know how to identify a trend of removing conservative profs and we are turning up the heat on people like you. Just because part of your name is “True” doesn’t mean you’re telling the truth. More and more faculty, staff, and students are stepping forward and telling people outside of campus what is really going on. You should hear the stories the parents are sharing. There’s a lot more coming in the days ahead here, on other blogs, in the newspapers and on the legal side. We have the money. We have the truth. And we won’t stop until the parents and financial supporters know the truth about the unbelievable on-campus changes in the character and integrity of CU.

By CU's Closed Door Committee?

April 6, 2008 9:15 PM | Link to this

Can someone enlighten the public about the inner workings of the university’s closed door committee (not the Trustees, but the group of higher ups who work at CU) and why there are never any meeting minutes released regarding these meetings, where they plan to take the university in the future and why they’ve decided to continue moving away from GARBC and other conservative Christian organizations?

By Sounds like a witch hunt to me ...

April 6, 2008 10:54 PM | Link to this

Unbelievable … sounds like a witch hunt to me! There was a quote:”More and more faculty, staff, and students are stepping forward and telling people outside of campus what is really going on.” That just is not true! It’s a lie and you know it! The faculty & staff are 100% behind Dr. Brown, the administration & the trustee’s. The staff support them and are praying for them! Another quote: “There�s a lot more coming in the days ahead here, on other blogs, in the newspapers and on the legal side. We have the money. We have the truth.” FUNNY! Why on earth would you be waiting now or in the coming days to produce this truth? It’s crazy! Read what the faculty & staff are saying over at http://cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com/ It’s over, move on! I’d encourage you to use your money wisely and to good use by putting it toward scholarships for the CU students. Here’s a thought, how about help with finishing the current building campaign for the new Bible building. SUPPORT THE UNIVERSITY, don’t tear it down! I Thessalonians 5:11, “Encourage one another and build each other up.”

By CedarvilleLiver is CNN

April 7, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this

CedarvilleLiver.blogspot is to Cedarville University like CNN was to the Bill Clinton presidency. The full truth will never be heard. Is a half truth God’s truth. Is forcing someone to sue a Christian organization the way Christians should treat other Christians? Is lieing to your donors and parents in order to keep them in the fold considered telling the truth now? Is bringing in speakers who do not speak in correlation to what the University is telling the parents and donors supposed to be considered telling the truth? The University’s actions in several areas do not follow the University’s talk. If the fruit tells a different story than the story the University is telling than we have to believe the fruit is rotten. This isn’t about the firings…it’s about the totality of what’s been happening. What’s been happening is a fast slide down.

By Shirley

April 7, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this

[SUPPORT THE UNIVERSITY, don�t tear it down! I Thessalonians 5:11, �Encourage one another and build each other up.� ] Are you building up the university by trying to fire all the fundamentalist professors? It’s time for a change, but not this kind of change. I notice you guys are good at quoting scriptures when it’s self-serving. It’s apparent to me you don’t use the scriptures in your daily lives and managing college affairs. It’s okay as long as the end justifies the means (NOT!!)

By More Questions About CU Direction

April 7, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?p=949&c=1

By Was Dr. Dixon "dismissed" from Trustee meeting?

April 7, 2008 7:02 PM | Link to this

More questions about CU direction: Where is Dr. Dixon? Was he in the way of the “new” direction CU is going? Was he removed from a Trustee meeting and asked not to return?

By we get it

April 7, 2008 8:32 PM | Link to this

About 3/4 of all these posts, all with “different” names attached, link to the same fake email. Clearly someone is just ticked at the school and won’t let this die. we get it, dude. let it die already.

By Ailve & Well

April 7, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this

Dr. Dixon is alive and well … he is the Chancellor of the university. There is a Chancellor’s Itinerary on the cu website and a way for you to directly contact him.

By Bill

April 7, 2008 11:03 PM | Link to this

If we talk about fallibility, I believe we all are(and I don’t take myself out of the mix). It might be with this perspective we should be looking at what the CU administration may or may not have done or what the professors may or may not have done that is proper. Is the Bible infallable, I believe it is. We, the recipients, are who read, interpret and try to make sense of it are the ones that are doing so through our fallibility. The Bible is the way God communicated with us although he could have done so through other means(after all, he is God) and also did so through angels, prophets, etc. that is if you believe this as fact which I as others do. Consider the ant and whether you could communicate with it even one iota of your knowledge. This would be like God communicating with us with even less success.

By Prof Mills Mentor Fired?

April 8, 2008 2:09 AM | Link to this

Was Pro Mills Mentor fired for writing the forward in a book that was pro gay lifestyle? Perhaps Dr. Percesepi should sue CU to get his job back now that it’s okay for students & profs to be pro gay lifestyle per the Cedars article. It’s more than the firings…it’s the trend away from the truth. By the way, nice side-stepping of the question about Dr. Dixon. People are asking questions, but you’re like a slimey politician and side stepping the answers or giving half truths on your LiverBlog. Do you really think that just because the Trustees have “made a decision” that that means the truth won’t come out about the Cedarville Slide?

By Shirley

April 8, 2008 7:33 AM | Link to this

Hi Bill: God is infallible, man isn’t. For explanation purposes, say you’re playing a game of cards, “GOD TRUMPS MAN: God is bigger than man’s weaknesses.” The Holy Spirit leads us into understanding of God’s Word, and the Holy Spirit is infallible. The scriptures came from holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Word of God, and the Word was made flesh and dwelled among us. God sacrificed his precious Son for all of us that are made in His image. I believe you don’t need someone else to explain the Word to you. You need only to pray to God for understanding and with the mustard seed of Faith to believe, and let the Holy Spirit guide you. It’s not a microwave, so you do have to wait on God. Although we see through a glass darkly, God is able to show us wonderous things that we would never know in this realm, He provides secrets to us in our sweet sleep, and still uses the gifts, (and I agree with you) the prophets, and angels, they never went away.

By No More Forced LiverBlog Oil!

April 8, 2008 9:33 AM | Link to this

We had a meeting this morning and concluded that you must be pretty nervous to be trying to find out who the group is that�s writing these questions so people will start thinking for themselves instead of just swallowing your LiverBlog oil with the half truths and your steps around the truth. It�s very flattering that you want to figure out who we are. We�re slowly showing people that they can ask questions and think for themselves by discovering the truth about CU�s slide. We hope you�re enjoying the Cedars, Dr. Dixon and Dr. Persecepi questions. There are more to come. No more forcing faculty, staff, students, parents and past financial supporters to swallow your LiverBlog oil.

By Justice ... at whatever cost!

April 8, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this

(allthenamesiwantedwereused) I don’t believe you would know the truth even if you heard it or read it! http://cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com is a great site exposing misinformation and lies going on. They are open to your comments at cedarvilleliver@gmail.com You just want to hurt CU (the pres, admin & trustees) along w/ the student body, faculty and staff, the HS and Grace B. You have your own agenda! It does not matter who else gets hurt along the way! You’ve been wronged and you want justice at all cost! Well done!!

By we ... who?

April 8, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

We … as in you and the RAT in your pocket?

By A little frustrating NOT owning DD?

April 8, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

So what you’re saying is that it’s a little frustrating NOT owning the Dayton Daily news so you can’t squash us like you squashed Hoffeditz public statement on his personal website (link to CU attorney’s letter: http://cedarvillesituation.com/links.htm?) We’re curious: Is it okay for you (cedarvillecodliverOIL.blog) to remain anonymous, but not us? Now there’s fairplay for you! By the way, once again, this is NOT about the firings, it’s about CU’s continuous slide. In one decade you’re firing people who favorably mention the gay life style and in the next you’re forcing out the conservatives and keeping those who favor the lifestyle and have forced that info onto the student body by way of Cedars and speakers/profs? Last time we checked the manual, yours AND God’s, we found that the lifestyle is not to be looked on favorably. Do ya remember the part about loving the sinner, but not the sin? Bring in new leadership, stop the slide and we’ll be happy to stop talking about this.

By TooGoodToBTrue

April 8, 2008 6:34 PM | Link to this

Oh Mr. Liver: The gig is up dude.

By Who Made Decision to Be Deceitful?

April 9, 2008 1:31 PM | Link to this

Another question continues coming up: Who at CU made the decision to be deceitful by holding off on firing tenured profs until after accreditation and how will this deceit affect CU’s accreditation now and in the future? Based on Milliman’s conversation, it suggests that the “we” he uses means it was more than just the AVP that made the decision. Like most planning at CU, one wonders if the group that controls CU’s inside decision making was involved. One has to wonder when the group decided to turn their back on traditional conservative values and embrace the moral and ethical low road. It seems that perhaps the Trustees need to start listening in to these meetings so they know the real desired direction of CU based on those who control it; because it’s obvious the outside Board of Trustees are acting as if they’re not seeing the end goal of liberalism at this point. And here’s your reminder: This is not about the firings, this is about the continued slide of the morals and ethics of CU. The people on the inside decision making board are your friends and neighbors. They’re saying “conservative” to your face and forcing liveroil down the students throats via the profs they hire and keep and the chapel speakers they bring in and want the students to emulate.

By Dude, Seriously

April 9, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this

at least change the email addresses on all these posts so it looks like they’re from different people. that way we could all read them and say, “wow, maybe this isn’t just one dude who’s really pissed.” call yourself gary or something. i don’t know. whatever.

By God is love

April 10, 2008 12:05 AM | Link to this

The real fight here is the one to keep legalism alive and well at Cedarville University. Jesus, help us to be known as your followers by the love we have for one another and for the lost, and not by our rules and our theology.

By Shirley

April 10, 2008 7:34 AM | Link to this

Love is a good thing, I’m a fan of love. But without Truth and Faith there cannot be true love. There’s lots of free love going around out there, but it isn’t all from God. Look at what’s going on in Texas (LDS), lots of love there, but little girls are being raped and beaten and made to have babies by 50 year old relatives. There’s lovin’ going on there, but it’s not good! Ask God for guidance on this folks.

By CU Shows It Won�t Stop Liberal Slide

April 10, 2008 4:25 PM | Link to this

In a sneak peak at the new “Inspire” magazine from CU, that should be hitting mailboxes any day now, we see that the course of sliding has been set and won�t be backed away from. Here is an excerpt you should be aware of in considering sending your child to CU or financially supporting CU: In an article entitled �Cedarville Then and Now�, we�re told, and we QUOTE, �In general, the campus culture now concentrates on real-world godliness rather than codes of conduct. And that focus allows for deeper, more honest dialogue about significant theological, political, and social issues whether in Cedars or in chapel, at the lunch table or in classes.� This wake-up slap to our faces tells parents and financial supporters that chapel and the classroom will continue to be used to force a social and left leaning non-traditional Christian world view neo-agenda on students. Cedars will continue to give students talking points regarding how to support the gay lifestyle and other left leaning areas contrary to the Bible and CU tradition. (This kind of makes one wonder if the gay organization that picketed CU was invited by the university.) And the best way to try to stop any discussion of possible campus culture change in its tracks, they admit to a change in campus culture. What in the world is �real-world godliness� anyway? Is it the opposite of �un-real-world godliness? What a joke! Is CU suggesting that Baptists (GARBC, conservative Southern Baptists, etc), and other denominations that have a basic set of Biblical rules and disagree with CU’s new set of rules - or lack thereof, aren�t able to cope in the real world because they are not socially aware or that they do not or cannot have an honest dialogue about things? And what exactly are �significant� theological issues anyway? And to think that we thought a significant theological issue was something like CU�s slide toward liberalism, but maybe CU just doesn�t �feel� that way because they�re so blinded by their rush to become a socially active institution, sorry, a socially active business that coddles to its perspective clients, and what CU thinks those clients want, instead of what God must merely only be suggesting in His Word that CU had been doing all those years. What changed? God didn’t! It seems that it might be better for a Christian student who is considering CU to instead attend a state school where they will at least know to expect and ward off liberalism and socialism instead of attending CU where the world�s damaging views are being forced on them by an institution in sheep�s clothing and under CU’s new definition of what “Christian” and “Southern Baptist” mean. Stay tuned because there�s a lot more to say about all of this. It’s not about the firings, it’s about the slide. Disclaimer: We left out the article author�s name purposefully because we really hope she didn�t mean everything she wrote, but instead she wrote what she was asked to write and was left with what the remaining �inspired� edited version became. A nice touch we noticed was how CU is �reaching out� in the magazine to those in the �Coalition of the Concerned� by doing a very short article on one of those who signed the tenure letter. We expected to see something like this, but are in fear because of the fact that most of the �C of the C� are either already semi-retired or soon to be retired. We�re afraid of who will be brought in to replace them�causing further slide. But then again, those folks seemed to only be �concerned� about what �tenure� really means at CU, and not about the slide of CU, being they are in positions of influence and could have stopped the slide before it began. It�s a shame that they seemingly only stood up for �tenure� and not for God and CU�s traditional values.

By Hilarious

April 10, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this

Any current impressionable current Cedarville students out there want to comment on how liberal they are becoming?

By Hilarious

April 10, 2008 6:56 PM | Link to this

Any impressionable current Cedarville students out there want to comment on how liberal they are becoming? Or are the alumns the only ones given the same mind as Christ to know truth? Evidently the 5 people who keep posting here are the only ones letting the fight continue.

By ...

April 10, 2008 7:03 PM | Link to this

…aren’t you suppose to be Christians? Why are you bouting over a public blog, keyboard to keyboard, instead of face to face? What a testimony.

By Response to "By..."

April 10, 2008 10:50 PM | Link to this

By, if we went face to face with the “other side” there would be major repercusions because we don’t agree with the direction of CU. If we went on their public blog, CodLiverOil.blog, they would also find out who we are. (Did you notice they’re using a public blog too?) There are a lot of things in Cedarville that need to change, but no one in leadership will move to make those changes while those who are following like sheep don’t act as if they know any different. Did we mention that those of us who do know what’s going on will be hurt beyond repair for having a differing opinion? What would you do? Would you walk away or stay and fight via the only means you have for what you believe to be the right thing? Hmm, we could send letters to all the Southern Baptist churches within the surrounding states explaining the slide, but then someone would probably fault us for that too.

By ExposeTheTruth

April 11, 2008 1:50 AM | Link to this

CedarvilleLiver exposed at this link: http://www.cedarvilleheart.blogspot.com/

By So, who's Cedarvilleheart?

April 11, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this

Funny thing is, there is no mention to who’s producing this evidence. It looks very anonymous to me. Appears pretty hypocritical to me!!

By Shirley

April 11, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this

FYI: I don’t attend CU. The Bible tells you not to add or take away from the Word, or you’ll have your part, in, well, hell. Now, I may not be a professor or administrator, but even I can see the delusion present in the decisions and actions that are being made here. I think it is sad that CU is going down the same path as other dead churches. I agree that children would do better to go to a public school rather than a so-called christian one that pushes liberalism. You must have a personal relationship with God, let no one get inbetween you and God. Perhaps someone out there needed this shakeup to wake them up. If you don’t follow in the light that is given by God, you can be deceived into believing you are doing the right thing when you are really going down the wrong path.

By Shirley

April 11, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this

If it was sin yesterday, it is still sin today. God’s Word hasn’t changed.

By We Finally Admit: Firings justified...

April 11, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this

Okay, we are now willing to admit that the firings of David Mappes and David Hoffeditz were justified. We�ve been enlightened by the �CU LOVE.BLOG.blog�! Here�s what we�ve learned: There were way too many Davids in CU�s School of Biblical and Theological Studies so David Mills couldn�t stand it anymore and made things happen so some of the Davids would be fired. Other profs with first or last names beginning with �D� (David, Don, Dan, Dixon) need to beware as Dr. David may still be on the prowl to find ways to remove you so he can individually retain the letter �D� for himself. (We’re really worried about the prof with both his first and last names starting with “D”!) Hey, it�s Friday afternoon and officially the weekend has begun so we wanted to make things a little lighter, even though the slide at CU has �nothing� to do with the firings of David and David, but the firings are only a result of too many �D�s� in the way.

By nothingbutthetruth

April 11, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

For those wondering why the Coalition of the Concerned’s link to their letter is no longer on cedarvillesituation.com, I don’t know the answer, but I do know it can be found at http://www.onetakemediaonline.com/download/coalition.pdf. Pretty much sums it all up. Also you definitely must check out the site an earlier poster mentioned: http://www.cedarvilleheart.blogspot.com. You will be quite shocked.

By nothingbutthetruth

April 11, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this

The link to the letter is a pdf file. The end to the address should read coalition.pdf

By CU alum

April 11, 2008 6:41 PM | Link to this

As a CU alum, I am very sad to hear of a controversy. When I was a student 15 years ago, there was a faculty firing, and shockwaves were felt all thru the campus. What I learned is that Jesus wants us to be UNIFIED, and above all to show love to everyone, Christian and non alike. Please remember that we Christians are people too, we make mistakes. And no matter what you think of Cedarville, know that Jesus did indeed die for you and He rose again that you may have new life. He loves YOU, and nothing we people do will ever change that absolute FACT!

By Fact is ....

April 11, 2008 10:30 PM | Link to this

People may not like reading the truth of what’s going on. Despite who may or may not be writing cedarvilleliver, the info on that blog is very straight forward information. The information provided @ http://cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com is relevant! Read it … and understand!

By CU Then & CU Now

April 12, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this

Information for “Alum” (two posts up): Dear Alum, we�re also sad to hear of a controversy at CU. If memory serves, you�re talking about the firing fifteen years ago of Dr. Dave Mills mentor, Dr Percesepi. You see, back then, again if memory serves, Dr. Percesepi was fired for writing the forward in a book regarding the gay lifestyle. That�s the difference between CU 15 years ago and CU now. Just fifteen years ago a prof would be fired for supporting the gay lifestyle. But now CU allows a student and a professor to write articles for the Cedars supporting the gay lifestyle and those two people were not removed from the school. In fact, we�ve been told in the upcoming �Inspire Magazine� that Cedars will continue to allow articles like this to be written and forced on the students, faculty and staff. It�s no wonder faculty and staff members have continued to be progressively unhappy working at CU. In fact the progression of unhappiness at CU is to the point that the university no longer participates in the work survey. Faculty and staff do not support what the CU leadership is allowing to happen and no matter what Dr Brown or anyone else says about CU�s stance not changing, we have to recognize that his words are just words�until he proves to us that they are more than just words. He can start by reversing CU�s embracement of the gay lifestyle and by reversing other areas of �slide� that are so rampant on campus. By the way, you need to also know that the Cedars is no longer available on-line for alumni, parents, pastors and financial supporters to read at Cedarson-line.com. Can you say RED FLAG? Dear Alum, please let us know what you think of this 180 degree reversal and whether you or anyone can truly believe the rhetoric that CU has not changed its stance on the word of God and traditional Christian values? This is NOT about the firings, it�s about the slide!

By Whats so funny is ...

April 12, 2008 12:27 PM | Link to this

(allthenamesiwantedwereused)- What makes me laugh is that you choose this forum as your choice of ranting. Nobody else will listen to you. LOL! There is how many people reading this blog, what, maybe 7 people (Shirley, yourself and a few others)? Wow, you are being real effective. NICE! LOL!

By Dr. Brown's Words Empty Monday Unless...

April 12, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

Dr Brown’s words in Chapel on Monday will be more of the same…empty rhetoric…unless he states specific actions to reverse the slide. Here are a few specific things he needs to announce in chapel Monday and then actually do to start repairing CU’s relationship with parents, prospective students, pastors, alumni, and other past financial supporters who want more than anything to trust him and CU again: 1-fire the Cedars faculty advisor and Dean Purple for breaking their contracts with CU for allowing Cedars to become a tool forcing non-biblical views on the students, staff and faculty to the extent that Cedars is no longer available on-line to the public. 2- Fire whoever approved Shane Claiborne as a chapel speaker. (Who knows, you might have to fire yourself over this one!) 3- Fire David Mills for his indiscretion of continuing the “certainty” issue to the point of unprofessionalism in the workplace. Think about it, if you fired a prof for this issue than you have to fire the other one, otherwise you’re acting like the parent who only punishes the kid who tried to end the fight and not the kid who started it and continued it! These are a few simple clear-cut steps to starting to clean up your act as CU’s president. If these things are not announced in chapel then we’ll know that things will remain the same at CU and that you words continue to be empty. It’s not about the firings, it’s about the slide!

By Churches Re-think CU Summer Camp

April 12, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

Churches, pastors and parents need to re-think sending your kids to CU’s summer camp programs: http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/06/continuingtos.html

By the rest of the link

April 12, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this

archives/2007/06/continuingtos.html

By continuing to laugh ...

April 12, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

Just more proof you are not reaching anybody on this blog LOL …. 60+ churches with over a 1000 kids at Junior Jam today at CU!! CU will have another record breaking number of kids this summer on campus! You need to get a reality check! Nobody is listening to you!!

By More Info Showing CU Slide

April 12, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this

There were videos of Rev Beth Maynard’s presentation at CU on the emerging church on the web, but the links continue to be removed. This is a link to a transcript of what CU students were told: http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/04/areverenda_beth.html

By the rest of the link

April 12, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this

areverenda_beth.html

By Info for "continuing to laugh..."

April 12, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this

The Junior Jam was planned way before there was an organized informing of the churches. Don’t worry, all of those 60+ churches are on our mailing list and will be brought up to date on the Cedarville slide. Oh, by the way, have you checked with the Dayton Daily News to find out how many hits this blog has every day? People are reading and thinking for themselves so don’t worry too much about us. We’re just here providing information and asking questions…that are apparently making you nervous and angry. Guess we’re doing something right, huh? We’re glad you keep coming back.

By no worries here ...

April 12, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this

No worries here & I have no need to be nervous! What you are saying is just not true. You have no organized anything. You have no mailing list. You are all alone and there is no “WE”. Your comments actually make me laugh.

By nothingbutthetruth

April 12, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this

Actually there is a “WE.”

By LOL ...

April 12, 2008 6:07 PM | Link to this

Oh right, ok, sure, whatever you say.

By ToTellTheTruth

April 12, 2008 7:45 PM | Link to this

Recently an anonymous blogger surfaced online with posts in a blog titled “Cedarville: Liver” to provide a ‘liver’ discussion about the recent events at Cedarville University. The anonymous author claims that the blog is a “presentation of what happened and what is happening at Cedarville University from the other point of view.” The anonymous author is always referred to as “we” and claims to be presenting the “other point of view” by providing anonymously submitted statements from Cedarville employees. And yet there is a problem: the entire site with all of its content in all of its entirety is a complete and total fraud, generated and distributed entirely by ONE incredibly deceitful man, Virgil Julian Vaduva. Sharks smell blood from far away. Cedarville University is currently bleeding from internal struggles and as soon as public news outlets reported a spread of Emergent views and various events at the University, Virgil instantly sprung to the opportunity to advance his radical views and worse, discredit his theological opponents - even if he has never met them or taken their classes. Like the commercials forced to be seen by an audience before a movie begins, you can always count on Virgil to quickly capitalize on the presence of an existing crowd so he might shift the focus and allow his views to become the center of attention. Virgil saw a crowd around the ‘situation’ at Cedarville and acted quick to try and shift the crowd’s attention in his direction. Many on both sides of the ‘issue’ at Cedarville remember when he would attend the Bible seminars held by graduating students at Cedarville so he might shift the audience focus onto himself through a multitude of questions. For this any many more reasons to be listed Virgil is a severe liability for any who associate with him, especially those he has blogged in defense of. Virgil is not unfamiliar with deceitful practices. Posting under the name ‘bannerman’ on the “Cedarville: Liver” blog, the many voices of reason” are nothing but a web of lies and deceit coming from one person. To quote Virgil, ‘Do not allow three or four people to manipulate you’ - or in this case, just one. His ‘anonymous’ blog along with its ‘anonymous’ letters of support are totally and completely fradulent, all of which were concocted entirely by Virgil. On the internet over the past month Virgil - by himself - has posed as over SIXTY different people voicing support for the privately Emergent-sympathetic administration at Cedarville. These comments and other content are also listed at the bottom of the page. Virgil’s Credentials: Virgil lacks the professional experience and education to hold weight in commenting on many issues. Deceptively believing so strongly in the weight of his own personal intelligence, Virgil has deemed himself an authority in theological, legal, medical, spiritual, and technological areas, but just like all comments cited to the “Cedarville: Liver” blog his qualifications are also fraudulent. Let me be clear: an advanced education is not necessary to understand the world but it is quite different and incredibly wrong to disseminate a false sense of authority on various matters without proper training or professional education. At 35 years old Virgil has had plenty of time to obtain additional degrees but for Virgil’s egotistical personality, he is already expert on all matters. Virgil cannot fool people in the real world, but there is enough information on the internet for him to simulate a digital empire of knowledge based on nothing. Not only are Virgil’s qualifications non-existent, but Virgil will take things one step further by asserting an authoritative stance of those who stand in his way. Just as Virgil offers legal commentary on his blogs, Virgil once used his (lack of) legal knowledge to threaten citizens for their use of the word ‘preterist’ because he claimed that the word legally belonged to him. Not surprisingly, that threat was based on a total lie: he attempted to trademark ‘preterist’ as his own word but was denied by the US Government (USPTO.gov link). Virgil regularly enjoys inflating the extent of his computer abilities to appear intimidating. As noted earlier, his pursuits take place while at work so not one minute can go by in which Virgil is not comforted by the presence of fans of his blog or those who support his theological views. Make no mistake, however - Virgil is determined to become a destructive and dangerous “black ops” hacker and often brags about his accomplishments to his blog readers.

By How low ...

April 12, 2008 11:16 PM | Link to this

(Forevertrue)- how low will you go?! Truth hurts and you don’t like it, so you have to get nasty.

By Dr. Brown's Words Empty Monday Unless...

April 13, 2008 1:34 AM | Link to this

Dr Brown�s words in Chapel on Monday will be more of the same�empty rhetoric�unless he states specific actions to reverse the slide. Here are a few specific things he needs to announce in chapel Monday and then actually do to start repairing CU�s relationship with parents, prospective students, pastors, alumni, and other past financial supporters who want more than anything to trust him and CU again: 1-fire the Cedars faculty advisor and Dean Purple for breaking their contracts with CU for allowing Cedars to become a tool forcing non-biblical views on the students, staff and faculty to the extent that Cedars is no longer available on-line to the public. 2- Fire whoever approved Shane Claiborne as a chapel speaker. (Who knows, you might have to fire yourself over this one!) 3- Fire David Mills for his indiscretion of continuing the �certainty� issue to the point of unprofessionalism in the workplace. Think about it, if you fired a prof for this issue than you have to fire the other one, otherwise you�re acting like the parent who only punishes the kid who tried to end the fight and not the kid who started it and continued it! These are a few simple clear-cut steps to starting to clean up your act as CU�s president. If these things are not announced in chapel then we�ll know that things will remain the same at CU and that your words continue to be empty. It�s not about the firings, it�s about the slide!

By valerie

April 13, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

I am very glad my father has a web site to get the truth out to all thise who want to know the real story and to the cowards who wont say their names same on you!!!!!!!!!

By valerie

April 13, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

I am very glad my father has a web site to get the truth out to all those who want to know the real story and to the cowards who wont say their names same on you!!!!!!!!!

By valerie

April 13, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

I am very glad my father has a web site to get the truth out to all those who want to know the real story and to the cowards who wont say their names same on you!!!!!!!!!

By ann

April 13, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this

ok- i’m signing my name because my post on the ‘cedarville liver’ site was NOT bogus.

By Listening to the TRUTH

April 13, 2008 11:04 PM | Link to this

Cedarvilleliver is alive and well. Latest news @ http://cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com/ I find it very interesting! At the end of the most recent post, it reads; “Physical threats sent to school employees and to cedarvilleliver@gmail.com by Hoffeditz supporters and vicious ad-hominem attacks endorsed by Raymond Bartholomew against anyone speaking in support of Cedarville University further support the observation that these people will not shy away from any means necessary to intimidate one into submission. The good news is that the scorched-earth, thuggish approach has backfired as this blog is now being circulated between many alumni and has now reached viral proportions. Remember that as readers and commentators of this blog you should rise above the gutter politics and personal hate, and should always display a Christ-like heart before a world that is watching us very carefully.” This is the very reason that I choose to post using a bogus e-mail address. Truth remains the truth while there are few that do not like it and will continue at all cost as you have read in previous posts. Signed Anon! (just a CU employee)

By Dr. Brown's Words Empty Monday Unless...

April 14, 2008 12:53 AM | Link to this

Dr Brown�s words in Chapel on Monday will be more of the same�empty rhetoric�unless he states specific actions to reverse the slide. Here are a few specific things he needs to announce in chapel Monday and then actually do to start repairing CU�s relationship with parents, prospective students, pastors, alumni, and other past financial supporters who want more than anything to trust him and CU again: 1-fire the Cedars faculty advisor and Dean Purple for breaking their contracts with CU for allowing Cedars to become a tool forcing non-biblical views on the students, staff and faculty to the extent that Cedars is no longer available on-line to the public. 2- Fire whoever approved Shane Claiborne as a chapel speaker. (Who knows, you might have to fire yourself over this one!) 3- Fire David Mills for his indiscretion of continuing the �certainty� issue to the point of unprofessionalism in the workplace. Think about it, if you fired a prof for this issue than you have to fire the other one, otherwise you�re acting like the parent who only punishes the kid who tried to end the fight and not the kid who started it and continued it! These are a few simple clear-cut steps to starting to clean up your act as CU�s president. If these things are not announced in chapel then we�ll know that things will remain the same at CU and that your words continue to be empty. It�s not about the firings, it�s about the slide!

By Words, but NO internal action?

April 14, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this

The chapel words were good and what were expected, BUT…Dr Brown, when will you make internal moves that back up the words? The fruit shows the root! Right now the root is rotting and the words, although good, are empty. The slide continues…

By dear "word, but NO internal action"

April 14, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this

you don’t have ears to hear, brother.

By Shirley

April 14, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

To: Continuing to Laugh, you think it’s funny. Do you think God thinks it is funny, too? I don’t think so. Too bad you are counting on people not finding out about all this. You think you are hiding anything? Maybe it’s God’s will to use CU as an example of what happens when you stray from the Word and Faith in God.

By More & more & more ...

April 14, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this

more info @ http://cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com/ They can’t keep up!

By God

April 14, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

I was just thinking that all of this is pretty funny. I will not be mocked, but I can mock. I Kings 18:27 (KJV of course)

By God

April 14, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

I was just thinking that all of this is pretty funny. I will not be mocked, but I will mock. I Kings 18:27 (KJV of course)

By Lisa

April 14, 2008 9:06 PM | Link to this

I’ve been reading this blog for a while now, and quite frankly I’ve forgotten what all the bickering is about. You all are starting to sound like the Democratic candidates. It’s really gotten out of hand. If the CU administration wants to take CU down the Emergent Church road, let them; if they want to promote the gay lifestyle and abortion, let them. Why do we care? Really, why do we care? I know why some of the fired faculty members cared. They cared because they loved their school, they loved the school that used to be fundamentally conservative, that used to be so conservative that many Christian music groups weren’t allowed to perform there, let alone Emergent Church speakers. So one faculty member (maybe others) sought to protect it, by (allegedly) disussing it with others. He cared so much that it cost him his job. He stood up for God’s word and professed the truth. He stood up for what he believed in and now some seek to persecute him verbally. Why? Because he cared enough to speak up? And it got him fired. Why? We are still uncertain of that aren’t we? He was fired without warning, a tenured professor, fired. Why? Apparently it had something to do with his “actions violating the faculty handbook”, by speaking to others about faculty members he found were NOT adhering to CU’s doctrinal statement and was so diametrically apposed to what Cedarville used to be. Perhaps THOSE professors should’ve been fired. Isn’t that also a violation of CU’s handbook? Perhaps the Administration should’ve listened to Dr. Hoffeditz. I find it rather strange that they didn’t, but instead fired him, to do what, “shut him up,” so they could continue down the road they’re headed? The current turmoil (slide as come call it)at CU began a while ago, about the time Dr. Brown came on board, from my understanding. Don’t you find that interesting? But again why do we care? God is in control here. He will let the truth be heard. What is more important, in my opinion, is why a beloved professor who dearly loved his school was harassed and then fired (without due process) trying to save it. That is injustice. And that IS what it’s about.

By If God Is In Control Should We Stop Trying To Stop the Slide?

April 14, 2008 11:57 PM | Link to this

Lisa, We really really don’t know how to respond. Should we give up the fight since God is in control or should we continue educating pastors and churches, parents and future freshmen, and prayer and financial supporters on what is really going on on the CU campus? It really isn’t about the firings, it’s about the slide…because the firings are just a result of the slide and we need to get to the root of the problems at CU. The root is Dr. Brown. The root is the Trustee Yes Men/Women. The root is the inside board at CU who makes the decisions. The root is 10% of the students who should never have been accepted as students at CU. The root is the people overseeing Cedars. The root is the people approving the guest speakers. The root is the person who started and continued the dispute that led to the “unprofessional conduct”. The root is the “Coalition of the Concerned” who didn’t use their 500 years of experience and influence to stop the slide at the very beginning. The root is the alumni who have sat on their hands. The root is the faculty and staff at CU who don’t have the guts to stand up and say enough is enough. The root is (put your suggestion of what the root is here). Lisa, we know your heart is broken about the firings, but it really is the slide that led to the firings and the non-renewal of several other contracts of people who didn’t agree with Dr. Browns’ immersion of young kids into the slide. Amy, do you have any thoughts on what we should do next? We were in the process of preparing a mass mailing to pastors and Christian schools suggesting questions that need to be answered prior to those folks continuing to recommend CU. These folks don’t read the blogs, they don’t know that what’s coming out of Dr. Brown’s mouth on the radio, in his e-mails and on CU’s website and what’s actually happening on campus are two different things. Who’s going to tell them?

By Shirley

April 15, 2008 7:28 AM | Link to this

If someone gets saved, or someone gets shaken and starts to pray again, this will all be worth it. What can you give in exchange for a soul? Sometimes you appreciate what you have more when you have to fight for it. You can’t go wrong with prayer (and fasting if you want to cast something out, like evil deceiving spirits).

By It's just not true ...

April 15, 2008 7:54 AM | Link to this

Wake up and get over your bitterness! There is no “WE”& you are all alone. You have no mass mailing. I think at the end of the day I’ll stand behind Dr. Brown, the CU administrators & trustees. I believe that they are men & women of God and have more character than you hiding behind this blog in some hole. There is no WE, you are just fooling people.

By LIsa

April 15, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this

(allthenamesiwantedwereused)- what I was saying regarding “God being in control” was that even if we did nothing, the truth would come out. Faculty will leave (as they already have), students will leave because of their disgust, and donors will find out. It may take a while but it will happen and CU will not be the CU any of us remembers. It will be no different than any other secular school (if it exists at all). It’s unfortunate. However, I do agree with absolutely everything you say and I also believe God is using you and others as the facilitators of truth. Absolutely keep doing what you’re doing, but be careful not to stoop to the level of one individual, who is undeserving of any response from us from this point on. As a Mom, I would say “Ignore the bully and he’ll go away.” If he gets no reaction from those he’s trying to torment, he’ll retreat because he can’t accomplish what he’s trying to accomplish—getting attention and stirring your ire. Continue the fight, as God’s facilitators, to undo the evil that has infiltrated Cedarville and return it to the CU it used to be. You’re obviously doing it because you care. I know the firings are just a symptom of a much larger problem, but I’m not so sure I care as much about the slide at CU as I do about the people who were so unfairly treated, whose lives were destroyed because of it. Because of that I’m behind your efforts and am proud to say, I’m part of the “WE.”

By ?

April 15, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this

(Lisa)- Let me get this straight, I’d like to figure this out. At the expense of current students, faculty & staff; YOU want to see CU to go down because of “the people who were so unfairly treated, whose lives were destroyed”? That makes no sense.

By Lisa

April 15, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

The question should be: Why doesn’t Dr. Brown & the Trustees care enough about the lives of CU’s faculty & staff and the hearts of current students to stop the “slide” they started—address the problems facing CU and do something about it? Because they don’t care; they have their own agenda and are hell-bent on destroying Cedarville Unversity—at any cost. BTW-those behind Cedarville Situation, the Coalition of the Concerned, and Cedarville Heart as well as many others have nothing to gain by exposing the truth, Dr. Brown and the Trustees have much to gain by silencing the truth and everything to lose by it’s exposure.

By A Few Cedars Articles

April 16, 2008 8:44 PM | Link to this

http://www.cedarvillesituation.com/cedarshighlights.pdf We found these on the Situation’s web site today. Please read and make your own decision about the type of “Christian” educational environment Dr. Brown and CU is forcing on students, staff and faculty.

By I, Me, Mammon

April 17, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

Everytime I look over at Raymond Bartholomew’s Cedarville Situation Links page, there’s more and more about money and less and less about truth and helpful substance. It seems like that man is obsessed with money. Why does he think it matters that someone got a letter from a “high priced” law firm. (Should Cedarville being using a cut-rate law firm — would that make Bartholomew happier?) And now stuff about salaries. Does that man’s whole world revolve around money? Is this what it’s all about? Mammon, mammon, mammon?

By UGotToBKidding

April 19, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this

Where is Virgil from CedarvilleLiver.com (AKA Where’s Waldo)? Doesn’t everybody just love reading a one-sided blog like CedarvilleLiver.com? Virgil, your CedarvilleLiver blog spot is probably down to 0 bloggers because nobody want’s a one-sided, distorted blog-site. Not to worry, because I will be sure to read it as much as possible and get you hit after hit after hit. By the way, does your employer know you spend precious company time blogging? I know my boss (if I had one) would be mad. Hmmmm, I wonder if they would be upset with you? Anyway,I love going to your site to get the daily funnies….what a trip!!! Talk about distorted, superfluous badinage! I’m still laughing so please don’t stop (I’m sure you need my encouragement). I wait up at night wondering when you will post something new so I can feed my insatiable, dipsomaniacal desire for more one-sided, baseless propaganda. It’s just what the doctor ordered, so please Dr. Virgil, please give us more, more, more !!!

By Tristan wmcge

April 20, 2008 2:42 AM | Link to this

You are the greatist! http://www.fxtradingempire.com/lifestyle-of-successful-forex-traders.html

By Tristan wmcge

April 20, 2008 2:42 AM | Link to this

You are the greatist! http://www.fxtradingempire.com/lifestyle-of-successful-forex-traders.html

By Tristan wmcge

April 20, 2008 2:42 AM | Link to this

You are the greatist! http://www.fxtradingempire.com/lifestyle-of-successful-forex-traders.html

By John

April 20, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this

The unanimous board support of the administrative decision to terminate an orthodox and well respected Bible faculty member is now well known. There are of course many others that have been terminated or nudged out. This is widely interpreted to be a slap in the face to all conservative, orthodox faculty, parents, donors and supporters. It is not clear how the board expects to avoid a “spillover” into their own respective ministries as they allow CU to slide. Would they or thier financial supporters really want a Shane Claiborne for youth pastor? Would they really want a Brad Kalllenberg for a pastor or missionary? Furthermore, secular acccrediting agencies are not very fond of coverups on personnel issues. Do not be surprised if this issue is visited again in the near future. It is highly likely that the AAUP will censure CU at their next meeting. With the much vaunted College of Pharmacy on the drawing table, university officials may find more than a little difficulty in getting state and national approval. The drifty faculty and administration may have won, but it is going to be a very bumpy ride into the future. I am afraid the board will not awaken to their responsibilities until it really hits the bottom line of the annual financial reports. By then, it might be a bit too late.

By CedarvilleLiverDestroyed

April 22, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this

It’s over Virgil (Host of CedarvilleLiver blog). Why are you continuing your rant on your website? Trying to convince yourself that you are correct? What are you worried about? The Administration is infallible in judgement and character and have mountains of evidence against any professor that comes into their realm. Get over it already and go on with your life. Oh I forgot, you like to be the center of attention and with this going away, you no longer are the center of the universe. Poor, poor Virgil. Or perhaps, you don’t think it’s over? What are you folks worried about? Got in all in the bag, right? Haven’t certain parties accepted an out of court settlement yet, that is assuming they offered one or several? Yet, why would they offer anything to anyone if they have an iron clad case? I mean, after all, they are perspicuous in their thinking and omniscient in their ability to cast down those that would get in their way with overwhelming truth, jurisprudence, and evidence. WHY ARE YOU SO WORRIED AND FEEL IT IS NECESSARY TO CONTINUE YOUR RANT ON YOUR BLOG? IT’S OVER. NOW IT’S TIME FOR YOU TO GET OVER IT! DO YOU LIKE TALKING TO YOURSELF, BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE IS LISTENING TO YOU.

By speaking of worried ...

April 22, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this

Who’s scared & who’s worried? It looks me like to me that you are the one that is scared. People are reading the liver site and you don’t like it. I have not read any ranting on the liver site. By the way … new info on http://cedarvilleliver.blogspot.com It’s a good read … exposing the illegal actions by those trying to damage CU. I like the tactics of unsolicited e-mails to the entire student body. The tape is old news. Who should be getting over it?? hmmm?

By Who's the bully

April 22, 2008 11:28 PM | Link to this

Lisa - I’d encourage you to read your post from 4/15 and ask yourself who ‘s the bully? The little posse you are aliening yourself with is the bully. I specifically like the unsolicited mass e-mail to the student body that is going on. You really think that you are going to win the student body over that way? What? Just the opposite! The “WE” you are aliening yourself with is loosing credibility. I’d encourage you to rethink your position on this whole thing. Just a thought.

By Cedarvilleaunt

April 25, 2008 1:41 AM | Link to this

About two years ago I tried to find discussions about Cedarville-both pos and neg, but you couldn’t find anything negative. I thought this was stange until my relative went there. We are baptist and align perfectly with the mission of Cedarville. It’s a great school, but whenever one wants to challenge anything, they are criticized and condemned and the humble request of “a prayer request” is offered to the student. This arrogant, prideful mentality allows professors, coaches, and administrators to not worry about honoring their word because any “confusion” is dismissed as “we are all sinners” and “pray for me” instead of taking responsibility for actions. This mentality led to my relative receiving a commitment on paper for an athletic finanacial scholarship that wasn’t honored and leaving the family in debt (is that biblical?) When my relative suggested leaving, they were told that they weren’t following God’s plan since God led them to Cedarville. Oh, by the way, that paper commitment means nothing in NAIA as the coach stated it is only to appease the player. So, although I don’t take sides over the current issue for lack of understanding, I believe there are deeper issues that are surfacing under the title of theological differences.

By L

April 25, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this

While I do agree that some here can appear “bully-like” when it comes to their dislike of Virgil, I would not say that those distributing information to the student body, trustees, donors, parents, etc. are bullies. They are merely providing those that should know information that they should be concerned about. They monetarily support CU and if there are things going on there that do not align with CU’s doctrinal statement and God’s Word in general, then they should know. This “posse” obviously cares about CU, much unlike the administration and those that support them. If in fact, Cedarville Liver and his so-called bunch of “followers” really care about CU then they too would be concerned about the Emergent Church/post modernism infiltration, the circumstances behind all the firings, and the inappropriate material being printed in Cedars, but he (Liver)does not. He doesn’t, because he’s in favor of it and most likely encourages it (cedarvilleheart.blogspot.com). Those that would care and be disgusted by it all and perhaps can do something about it are the ones this “posse” is trying to reach. Why, because they care. Duh!! I actually think Mr. Liver would like to see CU self-destruct—perhaps that’s the goal of the administration as well. Hmmmm.

By A must read...

April 25, 2008 7:08 PM | Link to this

http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=635

By Thirtynine Thousand?!

April 27, 2008 6:19 PM | Link to this

You think that was a must read … check this out! That Ingrid chick is wacko, you really should read whats going on on CU campus. http://dayton.bizjournals.com/dayton/stories/2008/04/14/daily39.html?surround=lfn

By jimelyyes

May 2, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this

there is the professional world of warcraft power leveling here. welcome.

By john

May 2, 2008 10:10 PM | Link to this

“Cedarville Situation” has just posted a fourth article entitled “Trouble at the Top?” It appears that the cover up has reached at least to the highest level of the administration. Should we be surprised if we find that much of it also orginated in conjunction with a few select board members? Remember that with the Nixon “Watergate” scandal, it was not the breakin but the cover up that brought down the administration. “Watergate” and “Cedargate” - many parallels. “Oh what tangled webs we weave … “

By john

May 2, 2008 10:10 PM | Link to this

“Cedarville Situation” has just posted a fourth article entitled “Trouble at the Top?” It appears that the cover up has reached at least to the highest level of the administration. Should we be surprised if we find that much of it also orginated in conjunction with a few select board members? Remember that with the Nixon “Watergate” scandal, it was not the breakin but the cover up that brought down the administration. “Watergate” and “Cedargate” - many parallels. “Oh what tangled webs we weave … “

By ToTellTheTruth

May 4, 2008 9:09 PM | Link to this

Article IV Trouble at the Top? In the present controversy, the matter of the trustworthiness of President Brown has arisen at critical junctures. The Coalition of the Concerned met with the President on December 17. At that meeting I asked the President about the decision to fire the two professors (Hoffeditz and Mappes). He replied that the termination was for actions that happened after the contracts were offered. Then the account in the Dayton Daily News referenced Vice-President Milliman’s talking with a student about the firing matter (this despite the school’s regular claim that it doesn’t discuss personnel matters because of required confidentiality) The newspaper account put the decision to fire (not the time to fire) much earlier in the year, before the North Central review panel appeared on campus. This was not as the President said: i.e., after the contracts were offered. Here was an apparent contradiction that seemed to have no readily plausible explanation. Subsequently the Chairman of the GIP (Grievance Investigation Panel) announced that the previously agreed upon rules were being breached by the Administration (including President Brown who had been a party to the agreed upon rules). The GIP was being required to turn over the transcript of their proceedings in direct violation of the rules which required that the transcript was to be retained solely by the GIP. The effect of this was that the Administration was in the superior position to discover information not available to it before. Again Brown’s word about what was to be has turned out to be quite otherwise. Another part of the December 17 conversation assumes the same kind of troubling significance. I asked the President why the Truth and Certainty statement did not include “certainty” at the critical passage. He replied that the word “assurance” meant “100% certainty.” The difficulty here is that there are faculty members who do not hold such a position and yet are retained in the faculty. Further the statement that “all faculty members are required to sign the statement” cannot be confirmed. None of the various presently employed faculty members that I have talked to has any knowledge of signing such a statement. The pattern of apparent variance from the truth lingers. In the Coalition’s letter of concerns addressed to the administration, faculty and trustees (available here on this site), there is no “lack of information which they readily acknowledged in the letter.” This latter assertion is in the University website at: Offices, President’s Office, important information from the President, responding to recent media accounts. Here appears to be another Presidential pronouncement that does not represent reality. One is entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts. The assertion is not factual. These seem to be quite inexplicable contradictions. And the school’s statement on the website relative to signing the truth and certainty statement is not confirmed by people of principle. This is not an encouraging state of affairs. There are other unencouraging situations that are equally troubling. The campus newspaper reported in an issue (LVI, 5) that chapel attendance was at a new low. It indicated that chapel attendance in the spring semester was 68.1%. This was in keeping with a trend from 2002 which has been steadily downward. The attempts to explain this were quite novel, including the idea that kids today have more choices and their decision not to attend to chapel came under the heading of choices. But one points out the obvious contradiction to policy of chapel as mandatory. The choice to attend Cedarville involves the knowledge that chapel is required. And, it should be noted, that petitions were circulated last year that spoke of the lack of Biblical content in the chapel messages. Given the downward trend in the Christianity Today surveys of staff satisfaction, given the downward trend in chapel attendance, given the noticeable unease of many with the President’s pronouncements, the future of Cedarville seems to me to be markedly grim. Given the clouds gathering on the national economic front, including the fact that some banks are no longer making student loans to two-year colleges (Citibank and JP Morgan Chase), one wonders whether the trustees have considered the liquidity crisis in the way ahead. From the catalogue entries, one cannot see a single trustee whose background is exclusively in finance. It would appear that Cedarville may be headed for, if not the perfect storm, something rather similar. www.cedarvillesituation.com

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