Cars and Parts Springfield Swap Meet
Carroll Commencement
Fairborn commencement
Ellen Belcher is the Dayton Daily News opinion pages editor. She writes about state government, education, the environment, higher education and all things Dayton.
Martin Gottlieb is an editorial writer and columnist for the Dayton Daily News opinion pages. He focuses on the political process itself and does such national issues as war, the economy, taxes and Social Security, as well as a hodge-podge of local and state issues.Home > Blogs > A Matter of Opinion > Archives > 2009 > May > 29 > Entry
Martin Gottlieb: Train depot issue offers break from the bleak
There’s something a little odd, isn’t there, about the fact that, in these times of the worst economy in memory, Dayton is starting to argue about where to put two stations in a publicly funded passenger rail system that doesn’t exist yet, hasn’t been fully designed and hasn’t been funded.
Jobs disappear left and right. Governments cut back on services. Charities go begging, so to speak. And yet we’re apparently getting a new train system from Cincinnati to Cleveland, though we have managed to live without one these past four decades.
Seems odd. To some, it seems a lot worse than odd.
Some politicians in Columbus have opposed the whole train idea on the grounds that this is no time to be pouring big public money into an iffy venture that the state has never seen the merits of before. They have said that, considering that more people are out of work than ever — and more are expected to be out of work in the near future — and even employed people are cutting back on their spending, because of fears for the future, governments need to do the same.
The thing is, though, the whole idea of building the train system right now is that all those people are out of work. Here’s a project that will put some of them to work, and will leave the state with an asset it didn’t have before.
If all goes according to plan, and the federal government puts up all the money for construction, then the project should actually help the state government’s coffers. It will make taxpayers out of people who might otherwise need government help.
Works for me. We might as well get something good out of this mess we’re in. The Great Depression of the 1930s resulted in a lot of terrific public works projects that otherwise would not have been done. That seemed odd, too, at the time, and still does. But it’s true.
Yes, it’s deficit spending — big time, if you count everything in the federal stimulus package, which is funding the train project. I’ve spent decades denouncing in these pages deficit spending that was much lower. But what seemed so awful back then — still does — was habitual, huge deficit spending in relatively good times, in the absence of any national emergency.
Well, here we have something like an emergency. Deficit spending got us through the Depression and World War II. It’s a reasonable tool now.
So we might as well take advantage of one upside in this downturn and luxuriate in actually having options, nothing to be taken for granted these days.
The idea of a stop at the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force has a lot of appeal. That’s easily Dayton’s best tourist attraction, and a short cab ride to other action. Public transit connections could develop to other aviation-related sites and more.
Riverside was denuded long ago of much of its potentially developable land (and potential tax base) by annexation by Dayton. And it failed in its attempt in 2007 to get income tax money out of some civilian employees at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, much of which now goes to suburbs where the employees live. The town is struggling hard, and it deserves this kind of break.
But the use of an old railway site in West Carrollton makes a lot of sense, too. For south suburbanites, the idea of trips into Cincinnati will have a lot of appeal, all the more so if a station is convenient.
Other possible sites — Fairborn, for access to Wright State University and Wright-Patt, for example — are worth considering, too, besides the one that would presumably go downtown. All these have been put forth. More might be.
If train travel becomes popular, what could happen, with time, is the development of, say, three local stops, with only one or two being used by any given train.
In time, perhaps, competition for the stations will take unfortunate turns. For now though, best to embrace that oddity in these times: an actual upside.
Permalink | Comments (11) | Post your comment | Categories: Columns, Economy, Martin Gottlieb, Suburban Communities, Transportation
Comments
By joe_mamma
May 29, 2009 2:25 PM | Link to this
You make it sound as if there is a consensus that deficit spending ended the Great Depression. There are plenty of economists and historians that believe FDR’s New Deal extended The Great Depression. http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/30/1930s-great-depression-business-shlaes.htmlBy George
May 29, 2009 4:24 PM | Link to this
Gottlieb, you must be crazy to shrug your shoulders at massive and unprecedented deficit spending and say, paraphrasing,”what the heck, at least we will have a train system”. Don’t you and your fellow liberals realize that Federal dollars come from us-the taxpayer? All of us, from every state, pay for these half-baked ideas that Democrats call “stimulus”. California, with this “logic” is bankrupt,as nearly is New York. America, as a nation will be next if this madness is not stopped. It does not work, never has, and will ruin the standard of living for Americans for generations to come.By Martin Gottlieb
May 29, 2009 5:39 PM | Link to this
In a column that was about trains and the local situation, I could only deal with the deficit issue briefly.————————————- I’ve looked at the link. It ignores some bottom-line stats: FDR came into office facing 25 percent unemployment. That figure came down to about 14 percent in his first term. Percentagewise, that’s a huge drop, probably as fast as could be expected. ——————————————-GNP grew 33 percent in his first term; 50 percent in his first two. I think anybody would take those numbers as acceptable now. The Depression did not continue, if we define Depression as the economy shrinking. ————————————————-The main sense in which the Depression continued is that unemployment didn’t drop overall in his second term. Some say the reasons were that the New Deal was constrained and FDR made some mistakes. We haven’t gotten to that stage of debate yet.————————————————— But it must be remembered that the New Deal wasn’t just about ending the Depression. It was about helping people get through it alive, providing jobs and sustenance. Even though unemployment remained high, life changed.———————————————————————- The Depression ended with WWII, that is, more deficit spending. The downside of that spending is hard to see. After all, the 25 years after the war were historically great for economic growth, seeing the development of the modern American, suburban lifestyle.—————————————— The most interesting conservative discussion of the stimulus that I’ve seen was run by Reason, the libertarian magazine. I’m sure it’s available online. They posed various questions to about 10 economists they like. They got their answers back individually, by e-mail, I suppose. So there was no give-and-take. The consensus was that stimulus was not necessary, that the economy would turn itself around in the natural course of things. (The consensus was not that the stimulus would hurt the economy drastically in the long run, just that it would, of course, foster debt.)——————————————————— I’m sure it’s true that the economy would turn itself around eventually. What nobody can be sure of is when that might happen: after 25 percent unemployment was reached? Obama could not take that chance.By George
May 30, 2009 8:07 AM | Link to this
Mr Gottlieb, It appears that by your strained efforts to defend Obama’s economic policies, you are under the assumption that he has our Nation’s best interest in mind. Taking this man at his word is folly. He has already changed his positions (from just one year ago) on several issues. He is clearly the most brilliant and bold politician we have seen in a long time. But that does not make him a good leader. He may feel that an America with a lower standard of living for all but with more “equality” is an improvement over our glorious past-but so does Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro. I disagree with all of them.By joe_mamma
May 30, 2009 10:52 PM | Link to this
Wow those gdp numbers were great! If they were positive, then why did they call it the Great Depression? Because the economy was not creating wealth. GDP is the function of private investment, govt spending and consumption. The GDP growth was from Govt spending and consumption. Not from investment. Unemployment fell because of the New Deal govt spending and then WWII, not because the economy was booming (creating wealth). I don’t think WWII ended the Depression either. War is a destroyer of wealth. The end of WWII ended the Depression.By Carlos
May 31, 2009 12:52 AM | Link to this
Who is actually going to ride this train? It’s slower and more expensive than driving. So, you are basically saying, “who cares. It creates jobs.” There are a lot better ways to create jobs than a train boondoggle. Hogwash!By Martin Gottlieb
May 31, 2009 1:33 AM | Link to this
This is a response to the last 2 comments.———————————- It’s called The Great Depression because the GNP fell by a third in the three years before the New Deal, and unemployment rose to 25 percent, and full recovery took a very long time. ——————————————————————————————- As for the impact of the war, the fact is that unemployment fell below 2 percent during it (largely because of the draft). (Of course, unemployment had dropped below double digits before Pearl Harbor, indicating that perhaps the Depression had run much of its course.) ————————————————————————————————————————————————————— As to the question about who would ride trains, here’s a story from the DDN a week ago. (By the way, I was saying the state should move toward the 3C project long before the stimulus money was a factor.) ————————————————————————————————————————— Fourteen states now have state-supported Amtrak passenger service, including Ohio’s neighbors Michigan, Pennsylvania and Illinois. Until last fall’s economic dive, all three states have seen steady and even double-digit growth in train ridership since 2003, according to Amtrak data. All three are expanding their rail systems.————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————— “I think we’re seeing a Renaissance of rail travel, not only in Illinois but across the country,” said George Weber, chief of railroads for the Illinois Department of Transportation. Illinois’ three rail routes moved 1.5 million people last year at a state operating cost of $28 million, he said. “We’re still seeing double-digit (ridership) growth on some routes.”—————————————————————————————————————————————— But will it work for Ohio?———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————— Rail advocates here shout yes, especially now that billions in federal stimulus money will soon be dispersed for rail development. After 30 years of state rail studies, they say Ohio is primed for its own state-funded 3-C Corridor system from Cincinnati through Dayton, Springfield and Columbus and on up to Cleveland. After all, they argue, 5 to 6 million people live in the cities and counties along that 260-mile route, a far denser population than many in-state systems.——————————————————————————————————————————————————— “It’s the acid test for Ohio,” said Jack Shaner of the Ohio Environmental Council, a long-time advocate for passenger rail service in Ohio. “Are we content to be a flyover state, or do we want to get on the map?”————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————- But outspoken rail critics, such as state Sen. Tom Patton, R-Strongsville, argue that trains work best in states with large metropolitan areas, like Chicago and Philadelphia, where the hassles of traffic congestion and the cost of parking make rail an attractive alternative. “That’s not the situation in Ohio,” he said. “This is a solution in search of a problem.”————————————————————————————————————————————————— The Ohio Rail Development Commission plans to start small with conventional passenger service along the 3-C Corridor that could be upgraded someday to high-speed. With hopes of receiving $250 million in rail improvement funds and another $10 million in operating money from the federal stimulus program, the commission believes a conventional rail route can be launched without state funding, at least in its first few years.————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————- Trains on a conventional rail system would reach 80 mph and complete the 260-mile route in about four to six hours, depending on how much money is spent to improve the existing rails and how many sidings are built to help passenger and freight trains share the track, state rail officials say.—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————— Amtrak, which would operate the passenger service under state contract, will release the results of a ridership and revenue study by the end of August. Meanwhile, the Woodside Consulting Group of California will produce by November a computer model of how passenger and freight trains could best share the route. If all goes according to plan, state rail officials say the 3-C Corridor could be up and running by mid-2011.———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————— Fares have yet to be determined, but state officials say Amtrak customer fares average 14 cents per passenger mile. For the 50-mile trip from Dayton to Cincinnati, that’s $7 for a one-way ticket. For the 75-mile trip up to Columbus, it’s $10.50 one-way.——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————— A far stickier issue will be determining the train stop locations. Local communities along the route — including Dayton, Riverside, Fairborn and West Carrollton — are lobbying Amtrak and the rail commission for their own stops.———————————————————————————————————————————————— It’s easy to see why. Passenger rail is a potent generator of development. In North Carolina, construction and revitalization of local train stations paid out $94 million in wages and another $16 million in local property taxes. Maine is planning to invest $31.5 million to extend its Downeaster service, and expects to draw $7.2 billion in investment along the new route by 2030.—————————————————————————————————————————— State rail officials have assured the city of Dayton it will have a stop as one of the major cities along the 3-C Corridor. Dayton officials say they are scouting a boarding site along the downtown tracks between Sinclair Community College and the Dayton Convention Center.————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————- But whether the Dayton area gets a second stop, and where, is unclear, state and local officials say. Stuart Nicholson, a spokesman for the Ohio Rail Development Commission, said planners must balance potential ridership against slowing the train service with too many stops.————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————- “Dayton will more than likely have more than one stop, but where that stop will be no one can say at this point,” he said.—————————————————————————————————————————————— Before finalizing its plan, the 15-member rail commission — a bi-partisan group of transportation officials and appointees by the governor and General Assembly — will listen carefully to local input while weighing the results of the Amtrak and Woodside studies, Nicholson said. But, ultimately, the number and location of train stops must be approved by the Ohio General Assembly and signed by the governor.——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————- Officials in Riverside believe they have the strongest claim to the Dayton area’s second stop. They argue that with existing track directly across Springfield Street from the U.S. Air Force Museum, the Riverside location stands to generate the most passengers for the new service. As the state’s third-largest tourist attraction with 1.3 million visitors a year, “the museum doesn’t need the rail system, but the rail system needs the museum,” said Riverside City Manager Bob Murray.—————————————————————————————————————————————————- Meanwhile, Fairborn City Manager Deborah McDonnell argues that her city’s proximity to Wright State University and the headquarters of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base make it an ideal location for a stop. And in West Carrollton, economic development director Bill Colvell says his city has an historic train station that could be renovated into an attractive hub for suburban residents looking to travel in style to Cincinnati Reds and Bengals games.————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————- Murray said local in-fighting over the second stop’s location will only hurt the region’s prospects. Riverside already is talking to the Greater Dayton Regional Transit Authority and Greene CATS about providing bus service from a planned train station and parking garage in Riverside to the base and Wright State University.—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————— “From a regional standpoint, we need to stand together on this,” Murray said.—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————- The Environmental Council’s Shaner said he’s thrilled that local communities “are staging beauty contests” for state rail officials. He predicted bidding wars among localities willing to share tax revenues with the state as well as the cost of marketing and building the train stops.———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————— “It’s music to our ears,” he said. “When the lawmakers start getting an earful from these local chambers of commerce and community leaders, that’s what’s going to put (the rail plan) over the top.”By joe_mamma
June 1, 2009 8:00 AM | Link to this
Again. It’s called the great depression because there was no wealth being generated by the economy. Gov’t spending does not generally create wealth, it redistributes it. War does not create wealth it destroys it. The rise of GNP and decline of unemployment during the New Deal were not symptoms of an improving economy. They were the result of government spending and consequently dependent upon continued funding and continual deficit spending. The Depression ended when WWII ended.By joe_mamma
June 1, 2009 8:13 AM | Link to this
Well. Good luck trying to convince folks to drop 15 bucks per person for a round trip ticket from Dayton to Cincinnati. Not to mention they need cab fair or some other transportation once they get there. It’s still much cheaper to drive and pay for parking. Hey it might be even cheaper now that Obama has raised the CAFÉ standards on cars.By P. Streby
August 26, 2009 8:44 AM | Link to this
The detractors don’t get it, but I understand why. Rail was driven almost to the point of extinction by gov’t funded competition (roads and airways). Amtrak was created to keep the passenger side of rail alive, but was never fully funded to the extent that other modes of travel were and are subsidized. Today we have a skeletal system which produces costs covered by one or two daily trains, but which could, if equipment were available spread those costs and provide quality and timely service. Also, because the service around the country is so sparse, just getting there to use it sometimes becomes tedious and problematic. We need this 3C corridor to be started and, over the decades to come, improved. People will ride, and wonder why it wasn’t here all along.By P. Streby
August 26, 2009 8:45 AM | Link to this
The detractors don’t get it, but I understand why. Rail was driven almost to the point of extinction by gov’t funded competition (roads and airways). Amtrak was created to keep the passenger side of rail alive, but was never fully funded to the extent that other modes of travel were and are subsidized. Today we have a skeletal system which produces costs covered by one or two daily trains, but which could, if equipment were available spread those costs and provide quality and timely service. Also, because the service around the country is so sparse, just getting there to use it sometimes becomes tedious and problematic. We need this 3C corridor to be started and, over the decades to come, improved. People will ride, and wonder why it wasn’t here all along.