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Ellen Belcher is the Dayton Daily News opinion pages editor. She writes about state government, education, the environment, higher education and all things Dayton.
Martin Gottlieb is an editorial writer and columnist for the Dayton Daily News opinion pages. He focuses on the political process itself and does such national issues as war, the economy, taxes and Social Security, as well as a hodge-podge of local and state issues.Home > Blogs > A Matter of Opinion > Archives > 2010 > March > 14 > Entry
Editorial: Crowds are not the enemy at the Fraze
The people who own the businesses that surround the Fraze Pavilion want to prevent blankets or folding chairs from popping up on their lawns for a few hours on summer nights.
Commonly, people who don’t have tickets to concerts or who don’t want to pay gather outside the Fraze to listen to the music rolling out from the amphitheater. The crowds are there to soak up the fun with their neighbors and enjoy the park.
That atmosphere is about to change.
Property owners are perfectly within their rights to draw lines at the sidewalk and call those who step across trespassers. But going down that road is a big mistake, one that threatens to harm a friendly community spirit that has been a big player in the Fraze’s success.
It’s hard to accept that there’s really a problem. The anecdotes property owners cite — public urination, property damage and increasing disorderliness — simply don’t match the general experience most people have when they stroll the sidewalk along Lincoln Park Boulevard during a summer show. There just isn’t any hard evidence of major problems or that misbehavior should be a growing concern.
Of course, there certainly are isolated cases of bad behavior whenever large groups of people gather. To some extent, that’s the nature of being next to an outdoor attraction, whether it’s an amphitheater, a movie theater or even a park or walking trail.
Those problems can be addressed in other ways, including law enforcement. Often, rule-breaking can be discouraged simply by asking the good people who use public venues to help. An army of people willing to report misbehavior and to reinforce the rules through their own actions and expectations can be a powerful force for good.
Asking for help from concert-goers and a stepped-up police presence would have been a better way for the city, the Fraze and property owners to start this conversation. What about blocking off a piece of Lincoln Park Boulevard for a few hours?
From its opening 19 years ago, the Fraze Pavilion was hailed for giving Kettering an identity as something more than just another suburban bedroom community. Lincoln Park Commons, as it was known before the Fraze, was an ideal setting for a de-facto public square. As a “central park,” it was already a popular setting for community events and activities.
The Fraze took that a step further. The Dayton Daily News described the new scene at the time as “a well-planned assortment of housing, green areas, water spots, restaurants and offices” that created “an environment that is serene even as it adds a cosmopolitan flavor to Kettering life.”
If, with the city’s and the Fraze’s blessing, neighbors throw up an invisible fence, they threaten to upend the delicately balanced, interactive “commons” that the space was intended to be.
It’s not too late to reconsider. Property can be protected in other ways.
Permalink | Comments (29) | Post your comment | Categories: Editorials, Scott Elliott, Suburban Communities
Comments
By Retired Sgt
March 14, 2010 7:15 AM | Link to this
This is really no different than what teh residents requested for the Oregon District during the Halloween Party, sans fences. Certainly, property owners, be it business or private residences, have the right to request people respect their rights. Asking fellow patrons to “drop a dime” on their fellow party goers is, unfortunately, a pipe dream. People today are hesitant to involve themselves in such actions. It is a shame, but it is a reality. This is a proactive effort, on behalf of the city, to, as Barney Fife would say, “Nip it in the bud.” I am sure that the policy will be warnings for first offenses, citation for subsequent offenses. If we are adults, one warning should be enough..As Sgt. Hulka from Stripes says “Lighten up Francis”
By Retired Sgt
March 14, 2010 7:16 AM | Link to this
This is really no different than what teh residents requested for the Oregon District during the Halloween Party, sans fences. Certainly, property owners, be it business or private residences, have the right to request people respect their rights. Asking fellow patrons to “drop a dime” on their fellow party goers is, unfortunately, a pipe dream. People today are hesitant to involve themselves in such actions. It is a shame, but it is a reality. This is a proactive effort, on behalf of the city, to, as Barney Fife would say, “Nip it in the bud.” I am sure that the policy will be warnings for first offenses, citation for subsequent offenses. If we are adults, one warning should be enough..As Sgt. Hulka from Stripes says “Lighten up Francis”
By Bad Taste
March 14, 2010 11:32 AM | Link to this
This doesn’t need to be an all or nothing situation. The majority of people sitting outside of the Fraze during shows are families or couples just looking to enjoy some music. I buy tickets to 2-3 events a year, but I often taken my children to listen to an hour or two of concerts that will go on way later than their bedtime. Its important to expose them to cultural diversity. THIS action on behalf of the Fraze just tells me they are only interested in $, not in building community. If they don’t adjust appropriately, I won’t be buying any tix this year or years to come. ALSO, I can hear the concerts from my house. Perhaps I ought to throw a stink because they intrude on my property and my life, just by playing loud music until 11pm. Whatever. They are not being good community citizens and I won’t support them until they do.
By Doggie Dentures
March 14, 2010 11:53 AM | Link to this
According to a related article, “The city wants to end the long-standing practice even though police and nearby property owners report no serious problems.” Sounds like the city has it’s head waaaay up it’s a*s. This stupid city instigated policy will be overthrown. And the city expects the new school levy to pass? I don’t think so.
By null
March 14, 2010 12:01 PM | Link to this
Is the tacky sign hanging outside Nortons in conformance to the Lincoln Park PUD restrictions?….
By Glus
March 14, 2010 3:00 PM | Link to this
It was a gathering of people from all walks of life, seniors, kids,dogs,gay,straight,white,black, you name it. For a few hours on a warm summer evening, people put all of their differences aside. It didn’t matter. It was about the music and that was a beautiful thing. I thought that is what America was all about. If this stands, I will never go to another event at Fraze. There is a diamond in the rough called Stubbs park in Centerville.
By just retired
March 14, 2010 3:33 PM | Link to this
GLUS - I could not agree with you more, but when you have people like this retired nazi, then one has to expect this type of action. It is a shame and the america I knew is long
By longtime tailgater
March 14, 2010 4:19 PM | Link to this
Let’s not forget The Greene, another diamond in the rough. Hopefully on March 23 we will be able to convince Kettering to rethink this. I am sure there’s a way that Kettering and the Fraze can work with the private property owners (which are primarily commercial). Please check out Keep Tailgating at the Fraze Alive on facebook.
By Property Owner
March 14, 2010 5:01 PM | Link to this
Let’s see how many citations are issued to those ignoring the signs. Buy a ticket and enjoy the music or pay a ticket.
By Doggie Dentures
March 14, 2010 5:10 PM | Link to this
According to a related article, “The city wants to end the long-standing practice even though police and nearby property owners report no serious problems.” Sounds like the city has it’s head waaaay up it’s a*s. This stupid city instigated policy will be overthrown.
By free
March 14, 2010 5:14 PM | Link to this
This isn’t about property, trespassing, etc. It’s about removing the “free concert” aspect of the area. So many people would just camp out on the side and listen, rather than purchase tickets for the shows. That’s not fair to the groups that are playing or to the people that actually paid to get in. Surely, the residents feel it is probably a right of theirs, but it’s really not. Pay to see the shows, or stay home—simple. And it’s not just the locals that camp out…many travel in with their fold up chairs, blankets, cheese and crackers, and expect to just take in the show for free. THAT is the issue… not urinating on lawns or disruptive behavior. How about if a show is Sold Out, offering a limited number of street tickets? That would be a middle-ground solution that would address both problems (the real one and the excuse). That would immediately decrease the number of people wanting a “free show” and adhere to a professional standard in any sport, concert, etc… pay to attend or stay home.
By "FREE IS AN IDIOT"
March 14, 2010 6:44 PM | Link to this
free- your an idiot! “free show”? you cant see the show only hear it. i would pay to ‘see’ certain artists,and i do, however why would i spend $38.50 on an artist im not familiar with? it opens musical diversity with ultimatly leads to sales of that artists music. as far as the urination issue…put up a couple of porto-jons. you talk about “FAIR”. grow up-life isnt fair! fyi- i live a block away from fraze and people park in front of my house during shows. big deal. i knew that when i bought the house. if you dont like it then go see shows at nutter
By andy49
March 14, 2010 8:51 PM | Link to this
What will the Fraze do next?Charge us homeowners who live near them to listen to their music?Maybe us homeowners should charge them for playing their music into our property and too loud sometimes.
By andy49
March 14, 2010 8:51 PM | Link to this
What will the Fraze do next?Charge us homeowners who live near them to listen to their music?Maybe us homeowners should charge them for playing their music into our property and too loud sometimes.
By andy49
March 14, 2010 8:52 PM | Link to this
What will the Fraze do next?Charge us homeowners who live near them to listen to their music?Maybe us homeowners should charge them for playing their music into our property and too loud sometimes.
By andy49
March 14, 2010 8:53 PM | Link to this
What will the Fraze do next?Charge us homeowners who live near them to listen to their music?Maybe us homeowners should charge them for playing their music into our property and too loud sometimes.
By andy49
March 14, 2010 8:53 PM | Link to this
What will the Fraze do next?Charge us homeowners who live near them to listen to their music?Maybe us homeowners should charge them for playing their music into our property and too loud sometimes.
By andy49
March 14, 2010 8:54 PM | Link to this
What will the Fraze do next?Charge us homeowners who live near them to listen to their music?Maybe us homeowners should charge them for playing their music into our property and too loud sometimes.
By andy49
March 14, 2010 8:56 PM | Link to this
What will the Fraze do next?Charge us homeowners who live near them to listen to their music?Maybe us homeowners should charge them for playing their music into our property and too loud sometimes.
By Leon Harrison
March 14, 2010 9:55 PM | Link to this
It is a community of moochers, looking for and seeking something for free, paid for by others who buy tickets that pay for the expenses.
By Bob Mehlick
March 15, 2010 5:38 PM | Link to this
Fraze is an outdoor amphitheatre in Kettering, OH. In the past people have always brought lawn chairs, blankets, etc and sat outside of the venue for free to hear the music. Families would bring their children. It was a nice neighborhood pride kind of thing. Not everyone can afford the $30-$75 tickets for the concerts to go inside. This year the City of Kettering and the surrounding businesses have decided to put up no trespassing signs to effectively quash any freeloading at Fraze. Other cities would be proud to have their citizens show up for events like these but evidently some movers and shakers think that this kind of community involvement is undesirable. So I say to the powers that be, “Bah humbug grinches!” I believe that because of this enforcement, Kettering’s aura from the heart of Lincoln Park has diminished considerably. When citizens come to congregate around a place called “Civic Commons” and are not welcomed by our public servants, there is something terribly wrong! Bah humbug grinches!
By quit whining
March 16, 2010 12:51 PM | Link to this
Every property owner, whether commercial or residential, has a right to protect their property. If you’ll notice the DDN, true to form, didn’t report the opinion of the property owner on the south side of the Fraze - didya notice that? Maybe it’s b/c that opinion went against the slant that they were trying to write. I can bet that if there were single family residences surrounding the Fraze instead of commercial property, this would have been an issue LONG before now - how many of you would’ve liked people camping out on your front lawn during a concert? There are plenty of common areas in the park where people can congregate to listen to the concerts, and not be trespassing on private property. The City isn’t taking anyone’s rights away, because they didn’t have rights to sit where they were sitting in the first place.
By B'wana
March 16, 2010 1:26 PM | Link to this
@ Leon Harrison- You’re an idiot, too. I and many others are not moochers. If you don’t know WTF you’re talking about, you should leave your IGNORANT comments to yourself, bu**head!
By harpowilbury
March 16, 2010 7:25 PM | Link to this
@ quit whining - I lived at the Residenz Apartments for a number of years. I loved the fact that people camped out on my lawn and enjoyed the free music. I found it to be a great place to live. Pretty bad when you have a problem with someone sitting on your grass. Get a life!
By harpowilbury
March 16, 2010 7:25 PM | Link to this
@ quit whining - I lived at the Residenz Apartments for a number of years. I loved the fact that people camped out on my lawn and enjoyed the free music. I found it to be a great place to live. Pretty bad when you have a problem with someone sitting on your grass. Get a life!
By harpowilbury
March 16, 2010 7:27 PM | Link to this
@ quit whining - I lived at the Residenz Apartments for a number of years. I loved the fact that people camped out on my lawn and enjoyed the free music. I found it to be a great place to live. Pretty bad when you have a problem with someone sitting on your grass. Get a life!
By Johnnie Cochran
March 19, 2010 9:55 AM | Link to this
Any information held by a government entity is available to you by making a freedom of information request. A police report is a public record and can be ordered by anyone for any reason. Any document held by a public official (of which the court clerk, police and judicial branch are a part) is open to the Public Records law. A statement such as “any and all files, letters, opinions, reports or other documentation whether written or electronic…” will cover most things.
By Johnnie Cochran
March 19, 2010 9:57 AM | Link to this
Any information held by a government entity is available to you by making a freedom of information request. A police report is a public record and can be ordered by anyone for any reason. Any document held by a public official (of which the court clerk, police and judicial branch are a part) is open to the Public Records law. A statement such as “any and all files, letters, opinions, reports or other documentation whether written or electronic…” will cover most things.
By Lia
March 19, 2010 11:27 AM | Link to this
The ushers and security there are mean enough to the paying customers that trespassing should never have been a problem in the first place. The general attitude of the staff makes me to go to Cincinnati or Columbus for concerts anyway.