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Ellen Belcher is the Dayton Daily News opinion pages editor. She writes about state government, education, the environment, higher education and all things Dayton.
Martin Gottlieb is an editorial writer and columnist for the Dayton Daily News opinion pages. He focuses on the political process itself and does such national issues as war, the economy, taxes and Social Security, as well as a hodge-podge of local and state issues.
Scott Elliott is an editorial writer and columnist for the Dayton Daily News opinion pages. He writes about education, city and suburban issues, politics, business, workforce and consumer issues.Home > Blogs > A Matter of Opinion > Archives > 2010 > October > 06 > Entry
Martin Gottlieb: Kasich pitch on trains not really about speed
2010 ELECTION
In the fight about passenger trains in Ohio, the two sides have not only differing views, but different information.
Some are on e-mail lists that are put out by opponents. These feature articles and studies with the bad news: about Amtrak’s costs to taxpayers, about bad service high ticket prices or low usage on this or that line, about cost overruns, slow speeds, unmet expectations and scandals.
But there are mailing lists on the other side:
about train usage being higher than ever, about how young people are moving to places with good train service, about how economic development follows train service, about how speeds are increasing (and plenty of people ride the slower trains anyway), about the huge government subsidies for auto travel that make the subsidies for trains look tiny.
As usual in today’s politics, people only feel obliged to know the case for their side. The other side is somebody else’s responsibility. With John Kasich, though, one gets the feeling he isn’t on either mailing list.
In a televised debate, the Republican candidate for governor said he was against 3C, the plan for passenger train service from Cleveland to Cincinnati via Dayton, to be built with federal stimulus money. He put his opposition in terms of speed. He derisively referred to 3C as a “39-mile-per-hour high-speed train.” That’s the main case most critics make: too slow to generate ridership.
To those new to politics, that phrasing might raise the possibility that he’ll change his mind now that the officially projected average speed for the line has been raised to 50 mph, with future increases reasonably expected.
Average speeds will be higher in the middle of the route: 61 mph between Columbus and the suburbs of Cleveland. All told, the Cincinnati-Cleveland run will be 90-minutes shorter than originally projected. The average approaches car speeds, figuring traffic delays and stops.
But 3C supporters should not get their hopes raised about Kasich. After the TV debate, but before the news broke about the 50 mph speed, Kasich and Gov. Ted Strickland met with this newspaper’s editorial board. Kasich was asked how he would counter the argument made by 3C supporters that, in order to get to high-speed trains, a region must first have conventional trains to demonstrate the demand.
(Supporters say that all high-speed systems started as conventional systems.)
Some 3C opponents respond that a high-speed system couldn’t be built on the current tracks, that it would be a matter of starting from scratch.
But Kasich didn’t make that point. He said he was just against the whole idea of passenger trains — high-speed or conventional — seeing no need in Ohio.
His position isn’t about conflicting sets of information. He said it was just a “philosophical” difference between him and the governor.
Given government subsidies for other forms of transportation, the philosophical dispute seems to involve special antipathy to trains. Ohio once had 2,800 miles of “interurban” electric rail lines connecting various cities. But the auto age came along, and the lines became unprofitable. Many were eventually torn up.
Passing up the 3C opportunity now seems likely to produce the same kind of amazed regrets that a lot of people feel about that story now.
There’s a last-chance feel to this. How is Ohio ever going to get the public to go along with spending state money for trains after rejecting a gift of the construction money now?
Republican candidates for governor in other states — California, Florida, Wisconsin — are also against accepting stimulus money for trains. But their projects involve more state money or less crucial connections (Milwaukee-Madison).
The 3C connection is one of the best ideas out there, given the population density of line and given that Ohio is behind other states. But those kinds of distinctions aren’t being made. Instead we get “philosophy.”
Permalink | Comments (49) | Post your comment | Categories: Columns, Elections, Martin Gottlieb, Ohio politics, Transportation
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By unclejj
October 6, 2010 12:57 PM | Link to this
You’re working hard Gottleib, but your train isn’t going to make it to the station. Vote for Kasich!
By Skeptic
October 6, 2010 1:21 PM | Link to this
I would love to take the train when I travel to other Ohio cities, or eventually to Chicago when the lines are developed. This project will create jobs and reduce pollution. How will you choose to travel when gas hits 5 or 10 dollars a gallon? Ohio NEEDS trains.
By Phil Denison
October 6, 2010 1:44 PM | Link to this
I have lived in the NE corridor & taken the train to my home state of Georgia-& loved every minute of taking the train. Ohio must not let this opportunity for alternative travel & community growth pass us by—3C corridor must happen. Phil Denison Centerville, Oh
By doesn't work
October 6, 2010 2:00 PM | Link to this
The Northeast is more densely population so trains may more sense there. Despite the utilization and the density, Amtrak still LOSES money and operates on a subsidy. The Ohio train has left the station…..it will be a money pit.
By Albert E. Wolf
October 6, 2010 2:03 PM | Link to this
The Kasich team seems to have it’s heads stuck in the sand. Don’t they see the expansion of train service going on in other states? Their priorities are strickly those of the past and should be soundly rejected.
By Jacob
October 6, 2010 2:08 PM | Link to this
I used to wonder why I was the only one of my friends from college that decided to stay in Ohio. The backwardness exposed by this debate has me convinced that its time to move to a better state that actually aims to retain its educated and young professionals. Billions can be spent on highways, but a relatively tiny figure spent on trains is considered a waste.
By F.K. Plous
October 6, 2010 2:18 PM | Link to this
Failure to build the 3-C (and follow-on routes) will sentence Ohio to perpetual Second World economic status. The current generation is moving from cars to trains because they can’t use their personal electronics while driving. If Ohio fails to build intercity rail and local transit systems, its brightest children will drift away to the states and cities that do.
By F.K. Plous
October 6, 2010 2:20 PM | Link to this
Failure to build the 3-C (and follow-on routes) will sentence Ohio to perpetual Second World economic status. The current generation is moving from cars to trains because they can’t use their personal electronics while driving. If Ohio fails to build intercity rail and local transit systems, its brightest children will drift away to the states and cities that do.
By Nobody
October 6, 2010 3:18 PM | Link to this
Where’s karon? Can’t believe she missed this one!
By Nobody
October 6, 2010 3:20 PM | Link to this
Where’s karon? Can’t believe she missed this one!
By T.D. for 3-C
October 6, 2010 3:38 PM | Link to this
If you don’t want to subsidize trains then stop subsidizing roads, Head Start, Public Education, Senior Centers, Meals on Wheels, Ambulance Service, etc… Oh and what is the average commute time in any of the 3-C cities in a car… I am sure that it is slower than the posted speed limit.
By Jim Shoemaker
October 6, 2010 5:42 PM | Link to this
I moved to North Carolina seven years ago. NC had two state supported trains running between Charlotte and Raleigh with one serving NYC. The trip was somewhat slow and the ridership on the Charlotte-Raleigh train low. However, NC steadily made improvements on the route. New signals, sidings, easing curves. Speeds have increased to match driving times. Ridership grew. Now another train has been added and ridership has exploded. Now NC is buying more equipment with additional trains coming. These trains are used by a lot of YOUNG ADULTS. Many of them having left Ohio. These trains serve many colleges and families are comfortable using them. Many young adults are moving into the intercity. Many of these are folks want trains and good public transportation. The highway age is coming to an end. Concrete and pavement no longer works. The ones who have their heads in the sand are those who are failing to look at the change that is occuring. The future belongs to those who accept the changes and act accordingly. If Ohio blows this one it will be regulated to further decline and will see the current exodus of its youth continue. T
By davidss2
October 6, 2010 5:53 PM | Link to this
Looks like the seminar posters from the protrain coalition have their directives to write often to counter any reality to railroads at any cost. =============I want a train to take me from Laura to Waynesville one time a year for the Sauerkraut Festival. Is that worth it? ======And george wants a train to take him from Laura to Miami Valley Hospital 4 times a year for his checkups. Will that pay the cost of building those rails specifically between those two locations? However, the roads are already in place and we can go there easily. Think reality.
By Thurmen Tom Adkins
October 6, 2010 5:55 PM | Link to this
Presidents Ike & JFK experienced the same 3 problems: funding; scandals undermining public support; public apathy. 50 year old highways can’t handle today’s demand. Upgrading 1 mile of interstate highway can cost between 1.4m and 3.2m. The 400m would create jobs,construction, entrepreneurs, etc. The passenger/ freight system for Ohio is the best idea.
By Thurmen Tom Adkins
October 6, 2010 5:56 PM | Link to this
Presidents Ike & JFK experienced the same 3 problems: funding; scandals undermining public support; public apathy. 50 year old highways can’t handle today’s demand. Upgrading 1 mile of interstate highway can cost between 1.4m and 3.2m. The 400m would create jobs,construction, entrepreneurs, etc. The passenger/ freight system for Ohio is the best idea.
By Ms.Chester
October 6, 2010 9:05 PM | Link to this
Let’s move forward for a change!! The 3C project will bring jobs and development to the state of Ohio for decades to come. Everyone wants economic development, but few want to put their money where their mouth is. It is also beneficial to the citizens who do not drive or do not have cars. This is very important to the citizens of Ohio and the Midwest.
By STOP THE 3C NOW
October 6, 2010 9:20 PM | Link to this
The arguement that having rail service leads to jobs is preposterous, as it has not happened anywhere else. When asked by state officials where it has happened and prove it, they can’t. Young people move for a multitude of reasons. Young people, college graduates are moving back home. We should make a 20 year subsidy committment to the whims of some young people that want to joy ride on trains. Bridges are falling apart, we need to fix these first. Say goodby to the 3C and Ohio still has 3 AMTRAK routes in Ohio. Save the 600 million dollars this boondoggle will costs us all.
By Roger A. Shope
October 6, 2010 10:53 PM | Link to this
Connecting Ohio’s College’s and universities by existing Rail Infrastructure is an Investment in Ohio’s Educated Workforce that will build and sustain Ohio’s bright future! www.ohern.org
By notrainsw/okaron
October 6, 2010 11:04 PM | Link to this
karon is nocturnal. She will rise after midnight and enlighten the masses regarding trains,trolleys and all things on rails missing from the Ohio experience. Anybody here, seen my old friend karon. Can you tell me…
By Mark W
October 7, 2010 2:13 AM | Link to this
I love train travel, and have traveled extensively by trains in Europe. But part of why it works over there is because the cities are more compact and have much greater population density, and the bigger cities generally have very good mass transit. On one recent trip I visited 6 countries/19 cities and never used a car or taxi. That’s easily doable over there for those reasons. When pointing to the speed of the trains, whether it is 39, 50 or 80 MPH, that travel time doesn’t tell the whole story. You also have to consider the time and effort to get from your actual starting point to a station, and from a station to your actual destination. Most folks won’t simply be traveling only from station to station. If I lived in the south suburbs, I’d likely have to drive to downtown Dayton and find a place to park the car, and then pay for parking, and then make my way to the station. And once I got to Cinti or Columbus, then what? Taxi? From my old Springboro address, I could be well on my way to Columbus or Cinti by car in the time it would take to get to a downtown Dayton station, and I’d have the convenience of having my car with me once I got to my destination. It would be useful if the pro-train side addressed this part of the equation. I suspect that this will be a big impediment to getting folks on the inter-city trains in the 3Cs. Keep in mind, too, that even with their greater convenience for train travel and even with their generally much higher gasoline prices, private cars are still the preferred mode of travel in Europe.
By trainsarethefuture
October 7, 2010 4:42 AM | Link to this
We can fall behind with Kaisch or move ahead with Strickland.
By joe_mamma
October 7, 2010 8:36 AM | Link to this
So if so many people want mass transit between Ohio cities why don’t they take the Greyhound? I mean really people…the option is already available. Plus its faster, cheaper in ticket price, more flexible with its schedule and does not going to require extra tax dollars to run.
By joe_mamma
October 7, 2010 9:06 AM | Link to this
T.D. for 3-C…we are currently having problems paying for those things you just mentioned…SO YOU WANT TO ADD TO THE PROBLEM. Take the bus.
By joe_mamma
October 7, 2010 9:12 AM | Link to this
@skeptic… The environmental impact is not an argument. The gallons of gas consumed in the US is estimated at 388.6 Million gallons per day (http://www.eia.doe.gov/). The population of the US is about 300 Million. That means the average person uses 1.3 Gallons per day. The projected ridership on the 3C corridor is 1,400 riders per day. That amounts to 1,813 gallons of gas not used each day by the riders. The 1,813 gallons represent 0.00047% of the total gallons of gas consumed in the US. In other words the 3C corridor will have almost zero impact even if you increase ridership 10 fold.
By John WA8LGM
October 7, 2010 10:07 AM | Link to this
Contratemp to one of the commentors above: If you would only look at the statistics about the real growth of trains and population vs. industry growth; you would see that there is a direct relation towards each. Ohio, my dear reader, has a lot of people who cannot drivfe or are handicapped beyond being able to drive. The problem I see is this: which one of those amongst us would disenfranchanise the handicapped and the non-driver from being able to get around the state for employment/holiday travel? I know that I wouldn’t do that type of thing. I would like to be able to get from Cleveland to Columbus or frm Cleveland to Dayton where I have lots of friends, but cannot do it because I don’t drive and the fact that there is alternative to taking a Greyhound from here to West Carrolton, Ohio and riding the local bus to where I want to go from there. As far as trains not adding to the probability of better employment, I would ask the naysayers to give a better reason as to why Ohio is in the pit as far as level of employment and other states seem to be progressing —- and they have trains. Seems like someone out ther is not making the connection between mobility of the work force and alternative forms of transportation. i.e., trains which we don’t have now and should. To “Stop the 3C Now” I full disagree with him. The 3C is an idea who’s time is way behind the times and should have been implemented when it was first proposed way back in the 50’s. I full want those who read this to understand this: I am and have for most of my life lived here in this great state of Ohio, have worked in the broadcasting industry and have seen the state go to hell in a handcart with other such equivalent “wonderful” anti-progressive ideas in the past. I don’t want to see this state become, as one writer said, a “second class” state. Unfortunately, until progress is made towards mobilising the work-force, it will slowly slip down the slippery slope towards that unless something progressive like this is accomplished for the benefit of the ordinary citizen and not for the agrandisement of the political hacks who “run” this state.
By Jesse
October 7, 2010 10:36 AM | Link to this
IT IS ABOUT THE ‘MONEY’ !!! 3C is dead before it even starts. The freight hauling end of rail traffic has already filed against ‘slow speed’ rail for reducing their ability to move freight. Freight movement reduces fuel usage compared to long haul trucking (‘green benefit’) for those who can not look at the bigger picture this is a real world fact. The stimulus dollars look enticing like the Apple did to Eve. However the long term realities are much different. A huge increase in the cost of consumer product delivery is unavoidable with a less cost effective delivery system, such as trucking. As a side note, who really wants to go to Cleveland ??
By Bublar
October 7, 2010 10:39 AM | Link to this
“The Northeast is more densely population so trains may more sense there. Despite the utilization and the density, Amtrak still LOSES money and operates on a subsidy. The Ohio train has left the station…..it will be a money pit.” The interstate freeways are also a money pit, in that they do not pay for themselves. Why the double standard?
By RWE
October 7, 2010 11:17 AM | Link to this
TAKE THE BUS!
By Standing in for Karon
October 7, 2010 11:17 AM | Link to this
To: Stop the 3C now writer, please read: In 2001 after a 30 year absence, passenger rail service returned to Maine, thanks to a grassroots campaign and a joint partnership between the state and Amtrak, which operates the state-owned Downeaster. In an Amtrak press release, Maine Governor Angus King said, “The initiative to restore passenger rail service has been in progress for more than 10 years, beginning with the largest citizens’ petition drive in Maine’s history. Ordinary citizens demonstrated an extraordinary belief in the value of rail service in building our economy, reducing automobile emissions in our air and providing a relaxing and picturesque travel experience to link great locations along the northern New England coast.” The Downeaster Corridor (116 miles), generated several billion dollars in construction investments (jobs) plus $55 million annually in tax revenue for the state of Maine (Ohio could certainly use 55 million in additional revenue. That is 55 million increase to the budget with the potential to continue growing. I would say the Downeastern has shown exceptional growth for a densely populated area. John is correct the 3C is beneficial for all Ohio citizens and business operations.
By Joe
October 7, 2010 11:52 AM | Link to this
We have to think do we want jobs are do we want a trains. John Kasich is the person for gov. John Kasich can bring ohio back to life bring jobs back. We dont need a train we have cars. Its more money for the train. think about it. John Kasich For Ohio.
By joe_mamma
October 7, 2010 12:17 PM | Link to this
@standing in for karon…you forgot to mention that the Downeaster even after setting record numbers for ridership and ticket sales can maybe cover half of its operating costs. Sorry…in the real world that is not a success.
By conan the barbarian
October 7, 2010 2:55 PM | Link to this
I am a disabled veteran who lives in Dayton, Ohio, I would love to take the train to Cincinnati so that Greyhound Lines will have competition, which would be an incentive to improve their service. When my son and I were trying to get him back to school, Greyhound left us at the station for 5 hours because their scheduled bus arrived with only 2 seats available and we were 4th and 5th in line for boarding. Greyhound needs competition build the 3C with funds from the 2009 American Recovery and Reconstruction Act. Make Ohio better.
By Linda Gray
October 7, 2010 4:00 PM | Link to this
I’m scared of driving on the highway, plus I get tickets. I would definitely take a train from Riverside to Cincinnati, and then connect to one to NYC. I’d travel a lot by train.
By Dave
October 7, 2010 4:38 PM | Link to this
Joe_Mamma, the Greyhound doesn’t come to Dayton anymore. It got moved clear out in Trotwood, so we could have another empty building downdown.
By joe_mamma
October 7, 2010 5:10 PM | Link to this
@Dave…what’s your point? That you have to drive to the bus station. You’ll need to drive to the train station too.
By Mike R
October 7, 2010 7:42 PM | Link to this
The Downeaster is subsidizied to the tune of $27 per ticket for boardings originating out of Maine. @Standing in for Karon…It’s impossible for Ohio to generate $55 million in revenue. The study cited by proponents of the 3C+D (done by AECOM) clearly says Ohio will have to subsidize the rail line by at least $17 million annually. @Roger A Shope, you are misinformed. Ohio’s passenger rail plan does not address or propose connecting Ohio’s college and university towns. Oxford, Wilberforce, Athens, Portsmouth, Bowling Green, Findlay, Urbana, etc. will NOT be connected to the 3C+D. @T.T. Adkins, it costs much more to upgrade rail lines per/mile than it does highways and roads. Want proof? Go look at the Class II tracks in the Miami Valley that supply many of our grain elevators and industry in small towns. Talk to the owners of businesses that are reponsible for tracks on their property and see how much it costs! @Jim Shoemaker, If concrete doesn’t work anymore then the next generation high speed rail will never happen. Please cite facts, not ideological talking points—You’ll never be as good at that as Marty or Ellen. Most of the FEC (Florida East Coast) tracks (amtrak uses) use high density concrete ties…not oak ties commonly associatied with railroad ties. @Skeptic, there already is a train to Chicago. Amtrak leaves Cincinnati every day at 1:10 AM and arives at Union Station 10:05 AM CDT. It only takes 9 hours 55 minutes. By the way, I drove to Chicago over the 4th of July weekend and it took about half that time…and I stopped in Merrillville, IN for lunch.
By Standing in for Karon
October 7, 2010 9:36 PM | Link to this
Mike R- Maine’s share to subsidize the Downeastern is less than 2 million per year. 3C is estimated to be 17 million per year and that is less than one percent of the Ohio ODOT budget. There are 140+ colleges and universities in this state, and passenger train service will benefit students. It is not impossible for Ohio to generate 55 million in new revenue along the 3C corridor. Gas is expected to increase this weekend to $2.95 a gallon. With the uncertain future of gasoline and the cost, it is just smart to look for additional ways to move throughout the state and provide transportation alternatives for all citizens.
By Mike R
October 7, 2010 11:22 PM | Link to this
SIFK, a subsidy is a subsidy. Does it really matter Maine’s “share” is only $2 million? Who do you think is paying the other part of the subsidy? Contrary to what many people think (Especially our elected officials and Marty and Ellen) money doesn’t grow on trees. Look at the numbers. It’s a $27 per ticket subsidy!! With an $8+ Billion deficit we don’t have the luxury to fiddle around with “only 1%.” We need to be looking at how to save millions/billions not how to spend more. Also, name one state/federal sponsored project within the past 50 years where the annual subsidy is currently lower than the original projected yearly outlay. If you think the “uncertain” future of gas is a reason for trains what do you think the locomotives will run on? Diesel. If there’s no gas, there won’t be any diesel. Currently there already is alternative (to cars) transportation for all citizens. The ADA Act makes sure vehicles are accessible to all people and the State of Ohio helps the elderly and disabled with fare assistance.
By Max
October 8, 2010 5:11 AM | Link to this
If ‘philosophy’ is considered a thoughtful position subject to discourse and change, what is wrong with that? While I’m still not sure of kasich’s position on 3C in any of its forms, I can’t fault him in thinking about it more considering the premises being generally accepted; the main one being ‘if they build it they will come.’ The lack of voracity about this idea in D.C. hasn’t any of the enthusiasm of the Interstate Highway Act in the 1950’s and that’s what it would take for such projects to reach beyond the discussion level. Instead, Obama and his ‘stimulus’ wants the states to essentially do the same thing without the ‘act’ of congress for funding an upkeep with the arguement being it will pay for itself. THAT’s not philosophy, it’s wishful thinking.
By Max
October 8, 2010 5:45 AM | Link to this
Just as a historical note, the Interstate Highway Act was Eisenhower’s baby pushed through congress during the Cold War as, in part, a national highway system to help move military convoys faster. Given the construction zones, DOT workers, and so forth, that purpose hasn’t really survived the premise. I think that’s also true about the 3C. Creating demand by introducing a new product is something for private business and venture capital people to do, not tax payers.
By Gary
October 8, 2010 6:31 AM | Link to this
DDN PUll ALL COMMENTS INSTEAD OF ALLOWING SOME. YOUR EDITING OF COMMENTS REGARDING CERTAIN POLITICAL FIGURES, i.e., SHERIFF PLUMMER IS REPREHENSIBLE. ALLOW DEBATE OR FOLLOW THE LEAD OF YOUR HERO AND DISALLOW OPEN DISCUSSION.
By joe_mamma
October 8, 2010 7:34 AM | Link to this
Standing in for Karon also forgot to mention that in addition to Maine having to kick in a susidy of $2 Mill per year…the federal government has to subsidize the line with another $5+ MILL.
By Max
October 8, 2010 8:09 AM | Link to this
‘Still comes back to the same question: IF 3C was viable as a profitable venture then why hasn’t private industry taken the lead instead of government and politicians? One reason, I suspect, is the government’s propensity for regulatory conditionals. Another is industry is already served by a freight rail system.
By Just The Facts
October 8, 2010 1:51 PM | Link to this
Someone posted “Save the 600 million dollars this boondoggle will costs us all.” Hers’a a reality for you: 600 Million won’t build the infrastructure to get the train from Downtown Cincinnati to Mason! It has already been studied in Cincinnati! Ha anyone besides me noticed that EVERY single candidate endorsed by the DDN is a Liberal Democrat? No wonder people don’t buy the paper anymore. Earlier this year, the Ultra Liberal Magazine Newsweek sold it’s entire operation for ONE DOLLAR. They still are not succeeding. They just don’t get it! There are many intelligent Candidates from both sides of the Aisle. To declare allegiance to a party is to completely give up on using your OWN brain. Pay attention people.
By Lori
October 11, 2010 3:16 PM | Link to this
Here is something for everyone to think about. Obama is wanting to make it so automobiles get 65 mpg by the year 2025. Think about the about of money the state will lose from the gas tax. The state will increase the amount of the tax, gas stations would then increase gas prices. We need to find alternative ways for transportation be it trains or something else because we won’t be able to afford gas prices.
By STOP THE 3C NOW
October 11, 2010 6:30 PM | Link to this
What Karon fail to tell everyone, all the investment and talk of jobs in Maine never happened. Projects abandoned, bankrupt, foreclosed on or empty. A pipe dream. Every time KARON is shown articles out of the local papers, she refuses to believe. KARON lives in a fantasy world.
By Mick
October 12, 2010 2:20 PM | Link to this
Kasich is obviously working the street corner hard for his pimps in the oil, auto and highway construction lobbies. I’d love to see a list of his campaign contributors.
By Phil M
October 13, 2010 7:47 AM | Link to this
The real problem will be district politics. If the train’s going from Dayton to Columbus, then certainly Springfield will want a stop. Then a stop at the Columbus Airport. Let’s not forget Massillon or Akron/Canton on the way to Cleveland.
By Jack
October 13, 2010 9:23 AM | Link to this
With Kasich on this, why spend money on a rail system when a BUS travels faster? This does not make any sense. High speed or this idea is beyond stupid.