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Ellen Belcher is the Dayton Daily News opinion pages editor. She writes about state government, education, the environment, higher education and all things Dayton.
Martin Gottlieb is an editorial writer and columnist for the Dayton Daily News opinion pages. He focuses on the political process itself and does such national issues as war, the economy, taxes and Social Security, as well as a hodge-podge of local and state issues.
Scott Elliott is an editorial writer and columnist for the Dayton Daily News opinion pages. He writes about education, city and suburban issues, politics, business, workforce and consumer issues.Home > Blogs > A Matter of Opinion > Archives > 2010 > December > 05 > Entry
Editorial: Can 3C be saved?
A year ago, Sen. George Voinovich, R-Ohio, signed a letter to the federal government supporting Ohio’s application for $400 million in federal money to build the 3C passenger rail line. The line would link Cleveland and Cincinnati via Columbus and Dayton. Rep. Mike Turner, R-Centerville, also signed, as did 10 other legislators, mostly Democrats. “There is clearly a pent-up demand for passenger rail in Ohio,” the letter said. It noted that the 3C route is the “densest corridor in the country without passenger rail service.” It also noted that economic development springs up around rail stations. And it said “passenger rail will succeed in Ohio.”
Now, however, Sen. Voinovich has submitted a bill that would allow Ohio’s money to be taken out of the rail program and used for other transportation projects. He says he has now concluded that Ohio can’t afford 3C.
And he hardly has to note that Ohio has a governor-elect who has vowed to kill the 3C idea and has asked President Barack Obama for permission to use the money on freight rail.
(But the president has long been bent on fostering a national passenger rail system.)
The outgoing Sen. Voinovich wants to be helpful to the incoming governor. OK. But the thrust of the letter Sen. Voinovich signed last year remains true.
Montgomery County, the City of Dayton and Riverside have joined other metropolitan areas in asking Gov.-elect John Kasich to take the federal money and run the passenger trains.
The main complaint of 3C opponents has been that the state will have to bear the operating cost that isn’t covered by ticket prices. That’s estimated at $17 million a year.
That’s roughly what the state transportation department spends on picking up trash and cutting grass in a year. It’s a teensy percentage of the nearly $2.8 billion a year the state spends on roads and bridges.
For such a big project to fail over such a small amount of money would be absurd.
Moreover, the Strickland administration makes these points about the costs:
The first full operational year of 3C would be 2012. The state would be able to pay the operational costs out of its federal transportation money for the first three years, and could apply for that right for the next two years. Meanwhile, the state could be saving the estimated $12 million a year that riders would be paying. That money could then be applied to the next few years of operating costs. So the state wouldn’t have to dip into its operating funds until a decade from now.
Nevertheless the question arises: Can somebody other than the state or the feds put up the operating money?
Given that passenger trains need a subsidy (like other forms of transportation), aren’t there entities that could benefit from subsidizing it: the people who make rail cars; the developers who expect to benefit from the siting of stations; the freight train companies that could benefit from improvement in their lines?
Some business people think the answer to this question is yes.
Also, couldn’t some public money be raised, not necessarily by dipping into the revenues of communities that are already broke, but by tapping into future revenues that develop as a result of train service?
Gov.-elect Kasich has made his whole pitch about jobs and the economy. And yet he is starting out by effectively turning down a $400 million investment from the outside. If a corporation were coming to Ohio with that kind of money, you can bet he’d be trumpeting the jobs.
He’s got to be at least a little uncomfortable about turning down the money. (He’s made it clear he’s very touchy about the possibility of the money going to some other state, which he believes would be an outrage.)
Why shouldn’t he look for a path that allows him to take the money without having to put up the operating costs?
And if the 3C advocates are so certain the project is right for Ohio, why shouldn’t they be trying to put before him some way to salvage it?
Permalink | Comments (119) | Post your comment | Categories: Editorials, Martin Gottlieb, National government, Ohio government, Transportation
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By Wow
December 5, 2010 6:32 AM | Link to this
Unbelievable. The DDN editorial board is actually making the argument for a government-sponsored plan that it acknowledges will lose money. It doesn’t get any more stupid than this. I got some news for the DDN: those “teensy” amounts actually add up to the billions of dollars we in the hole for right now. It’s the same spending mindset that gets people in personal financial trouble. It’s obvious why Obama wants a rail system. His economic policies will send this nation in to another depression and the new hobos will need trains to ride from town to town.
By Kurt
December 5, 2010 6:51 AM | Link to this
The 3-C is all about control, herd the peons onto trains and buses.—-Control—take away your health care choices—Control—take away your talk radio and Fox news—Control—tale away your firearms—Control—take away your private property and 401K-control-cell phone jammers in every car and truck—control-tax your labor-Control—forced gov.”education”—control—democrats=love control-because they are Marxist at heart.-Folks—wake up and get involved before it is too late.
By kurt
December 5, 2010 7:02 AM | Link to this
Want more folks??—Under the cap and tax bill, passed by democrats out of the House in June 2009, the fed gov. will require you to have a actual licence on your house, require you to pass muster with several gov. agencies just to sell your own house. All based on the total fiction of the global warming myth. Also the present energy secretary under Dumbama wants to paint all the roads, rooftops and cars white.———CONTROL——you folks can google anything I write and find out for yourself. I hope you do.
By kurt
December 5, 2010 7:12 AM | Link to this
The tax cut debate is unreal. For nine years the democrats have told us that Bush passed it for his rich buddies, and screw the middle class. Now they want to keep them,—FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS—well, which is it?? The fact of the matter is, the achievers pay the lions share of the taxes, by far, the m iddle class pay very little in federal income taxes, and the poor are the blood sucking leeches(many of them—all democrats voters by the way)-they have always been.
By Kurt
December 5, 2010 7:19 AM | Link to this
This great nation was founded on the simple notion that a person gets to rightfully keep the fruits of his brains and labor, on private property rights, on the right to keep and bear arms, that a society propers best, when people are left alone—to be the best they can be, and not be punished for it, or not to be rewarded, with other people money, if you choose poorly, in the choices, that make up a life.
By scary
December 5, 2010 7:50 AM | Link to this
Kurt, You sound like one of them doofuses that have 1,000 guns in your house, a pit in your basement, and no TV because the government is only trying to spy on you through it. Good luck with all that.
By earl
December 5, 2010 8:12 AM | Link to this
Scary, sometimes truth when given out in large doses is scary. If you were to read the writings of our founding fathers, you would probably think them to be doofuses. Socialism is an insidious decay unrecognizable by the complacent masses.
By Ronald Reagan
December 5, 2010 9:12 AM | Link to this
Where’s Karon? She must still be asleep at the switch (typical democrat).
By Toot-Toot!!!!
December 5, 2010 9:33 AM | Link to this
I believe the Democrat party could fund high a high speed rail project with monetary help from the party mentor, George Soros. The Chinese have succeeded with the rail project they run between two cities. Karon could be the Ambassador of “The Ohio Toot Toot Choo Choo Train Project”, bowing, (as your President does), to the Chinese asking for their help. Her obsessive-compulsive antics are sure to impress the reserved Chinese. They could build the test track from the abandoned Moraine Assembly Plant to the abandoned DHL air freight facility in Wilmington. The empty train would mimic what’s to come when built nationwide. To paraphrase the words of the former Speaker of the House, Princess Nancy: “We’ll build it first, then we’ll see if it works”. The money/time/resources wasted on this failed project will be blamed on the Tea Party radicals in a media controlled feeding frenzy that would make “Jaws”, the movie shark, swim away in fear. What’s everyone else think? Good deal?
By Spike
December 5, 2010 9:47 AM | Link to this
I’m not kidding you folks THIS IS FOR REAL AND IT’S THE MAYOR OF THE CITY OF DAYTON’S BLOG: http://thisoldcrackhouse.blogspot.com/ This is what this guy does - hilarious. No wonder Dayton is in the crapper.
By Brian
December 5, 2010 10:09 AM | Link to this
Those who support 3C need to show how it will actually help everyone in Ohio - I can see the advantage for Dayton, Riverside, etc. But, when you poll people outside of the urban centers, support drops considerably. My view is that this is just a ruse to wealth-shift money to the failed inner cities from very successful suburb areas. On the issue of whether “there is clearly a pent-up demand for passenger rail in Ohio” — of course there isn’t. 3C rail is a solution looking for a problem. We used to have passenger rail to and from Dayton - nothing has changed since the 60s/70s when passenger rail was here. Except that population has moved to the suburbs and 3C rail is (again) a veiled ruse to pull resources back to the urban areas.
By unreal
December 5, 2010 11:02 AM | Link to this
Would you idiots just drop the train thing? It was a bad idea that has thankfully been killed. Let it go.
By Bill
December 5, 2010 11:49 AM | Link to this
Don’t understand attacking the Mayor for using his money and sweat to bring something back or why it’s brought up here. (and I’m not a fan of the Mayor) As the price of gas keeps working it’s way to record profits for oil giants, it won’t be long till the decision to drop 3c will bite ‘ol Gov in the butt. But his millionaire buddies will take care of him.
By davidss2
December 5, 2010 11:53 AM | Link to this
If trains is a profitable item, the COX COMMUNICATIONS WOULD BUILD IT. No private business will touch it—not even the Dems favorite George Soros. That tells us it’s a labor union sink hole; just meant to build jobs at taxpayer dole for labor unions. I’m still laughing at the quote in the editorial, QUOTE: “There is clearly a pent-up demand for passenger rail in Ohio,” the
By karon
December 5, 2010 12:40 PM | Link to this
Just got back from New York city! The transportation in NYC is wonderful , so many people riding rail and the subways , and the buses and of course they have planes and cars! The North east is so productive with all of this fabulous transportation alternatives to cars! Gas prices around NYC and suburbs were 3.21 and over!
By r
December 5, 2010 1:52 PM | Link to this
what is pent up demand for rail?…hey why not bring back the Erie Canal …this so called high speed rail is not high speed remember it is on freight rail….glad it is dead…
By karon
December 5, 2010 1:59 PM | Link to this
R , Ohio has to start a conventional train FIRST, before they can become high speed!
By so dense
December 5, 2010 2:06 PM | Link to this
Yes karon, and how many times has it been explained to you why rail works (to some degree) in NYC and the northeast and why that region is different than Ohio, and therefore NOT a valid comparison. Only the most feeble-minded imbecile would think this rail plan is a good idea for Ohio.
By karon
December 5, 2010 2:18 PM | Link to this
Passenger trains will work in every state of the union! In fact their are states that have less population than Ohio does and they have passenger trains! Actually their is over 6 million people in the Cincinnati, Dayton and Columbus area , this is alot of people with only a car only option! Gas prices are rising if gas prices get over 3.00 this is going to effect many people in this region! Kasich start those trains!
By painfultruth
December 5, 2010 2:26 PM | Link to this
The statement above is 100% correct. “Only the most feeble-minded imbecile would think this rail plan is a good idea for Ohio”. And that’s why KARON and all her demosheep followers want it so badly. Comparing NYC to Ohio is like comparing a grape to an aircraft carrier. Ahh, “liberal logic” in ACTION!
By lol
December 5, 2010 2:32 PM | Link to this
Not that it would matter with you karon, but if you want to be taken seriously you might want to at least learn the proper use of ‘their’, ‘there’, and ‘they’re’. I don’t think someone that can’t master that simple concept can possibly grasp the reasons why trains would or would not work in a certain region.
By karon
December 5, 2010 2:48 PM | Link to this
Painfultruth, I am trying to say the trains makes the north east very productive and those trains create thousands of jobs and it attracts business to those areas! Trains will attract new business and help our cities bounce back! Most importantly the trains will create JOBS! With gas prices on the rise, Ohioians will have an alternative besides just cars!
By wow
December 5, 2010 3:03 PM | Link to this
I wonder if it is possible for anyone to be more clueless on any topic than karon is on trains. No matter what aspect you address or try to explain, all backed up with FACTS, she just keeps on keeping on.
By Karon Is Right
December 5, 2010 3:30 PM | Link to this
People WILL ride. The train WON’T be drain on the state. This is borne out in everyday experience in other states. And for Kurt: Let’s put the shoe on the other foot. We are coerced into having to drive everywhere because we have had a highways-only transportation policy in Ohio for years. Private enterprise worked for passenger rail until government distorted the marketplace with massive support for roads.
By Karon is Right is WRONG
December 5, 2010 3:34 PM | Link to this
Sorry, but thanks for playing anyway.
By Karon Is Right
December 5, 2010 3:38 PM | Link to this
Added note: This spring I was in Ft. Worth TX, a place that couldn’t be further removed from the Northeast…and guess what? People were actually RIDING trains there…WITHOUT being coerced! They were on Amtrak, The Trinity Rail Express between Ft. Worth and Dallas and they were on the light rail line. The trains were packed, nearly standing room only. This is happening all over the country, except in highway-uber-alles Ohio, where we don’t have trains.
By Karon is Right is still WRONG
December 5, 2010 3:49 PM | Link to this
Whether anyone will ride or not is not the issue. Whether ENOUGH people will ride to sustain this boondoggle without wasting millions in tax dollars to subsidize is the issue. It won’t happen. PERIOD.
By National Limited
December 5, 2010 3:52 PM | Link to this
You car-crazy highway-happy idiots act like 3C passenger rail is a Marxist pogrom that threatens the Republic. “A wealth-shift from the suburbs to inner-cities?” GTF outta here! Oh, I see, but it’s OK for “big government” to build roads and airports? Who the F—- do you think pays for that? Get over your Railophobia and get into the 21st century, A-holes!
By National Limited
December 5, 2010 3:53 PM | Link to this
You car-crazy highway-happy idiots act like 3C passenger rail is a Marxist pogrom that threatens the Republic. “A wealth-shift from the suburbs to inner-cities?” GTF outta here! Oh, I see, but it’s OK for “big government” to build roads and airports? Who the F—- do you think pays for that? Get over your Railophobia and get into the 21st century, A-holes!
By National Limited
December 5, 2010 3:54 PM | Link to this
You car-crazy highway-happy idiots act like 3C passenger rail is a Marxist pogrom that threatens the Republic. “A wealth-shift from the suburbs to inner-cities?” GTF outta here! Oh, I see, but it’s OK for “big government” to build roads and airports? Who the F—- do you think pays for that? Get over your Railophobia and get into the 21st century, A-holes!
By National Limited
December 5, 2010 3:55 PM | Link to this
You car-crazy highway-happy idiots act like 3C passenger rail is a Marxist pogrom that threatens the Republic. “A wealth-shift from the suburbs to inner-cities?” GTF outta here! Oh, I see, but it’s OK for “big government” to build roads and airports? Who the F—- do you think pays for that? Get over your Railophobia and get into the 21st century, A-holes!
By lol @ National Limited
December 5, 2010 3:55 PM | Link to this
Saying it three times doesn’t make you any less WRONG.
By National Limited
December 5, 2010 4:00 PM | Link to this
Blame DDN for the multiple posts.
By nope
December 5, 2010 4:06 PM | Link to this
I’d blame them for TWO post, but FOUR just means you’re as impatient as you are wrong about trains.
By National Limited
December 5, 2010 4:38 PM | Link to this
@NOPE - Ok, so what’s “wrong about trains?” Tell me! Hey, Nope rhymes with Dope!
By National Limited
December 5, 2010 4:39 PM | Link to this
@NOPE - Ok, so what’s “wrong about trains?” Tell me! Hey, Nope rhymes with Dope!
By National Limited slow as karon?
December 5, 2010 4:45 PM | Link to this
Looks like it. What part of ‘not enough people will ride the train to pay for it without wasting taxpayer dollars to subsidize’ don’t you understand?
By very good
December 5, 2010 5:00 PM | Link to this
Wow National Limited, did you come up with ‘Nope rhymes with Dope’ all by yourself? Interesting that you seem to have mastered the concept of rhyming but somehow don’t seem to get past the fact that passenger trains will be a colossal waste of money in Ohio. The rhyming thing is much more complex than the train thing, so hang in there.
By Huh
December 5, 2010 5:36 PM | Link to this
Hey that’s OK all you naysayers. Nothing says Ohio HAS to be a great state.
By right
December 5, 2010 5:47 PM | Link to this
and we all know that Ohio is just one passenger train system that no one uses from being ‘great’.
By Jet Pack Jim
December 5, 2010 5:50 PM | Link to this
God bless the dreamers of the world, they help the practical feel intelligent. God bless practical people, they help the dreamers feel like visionaries. God help us when we let dreamers dictate to us what is practical.
By Jet Pack Jim
December 5, 2010 5:53 PM | Link to this
God bless the dreamers of the world, they help the practical feel intelligent. God bless practical people, they help the dreamers feel like visionaries. God help us when we let dreamers dictate to us what is practical.
By Jet Pack Jim
December 5, 2010 5:53 PM | Link to this
God bless the dreamers of the world, they help the practical feel intelligent. God bless practical people, they help the dreamers feel like visionaries. God help us when we let dreamers dictate to us what is practical.
By Dorthy
December 5, 2010 5:59 PM | Link to this
Click your ruby slippers three times and you get three posts.
By TRS
December 5, 2010 7:36 PM | Link to this
Most of the justification for trains claim that there would be strong commuter traffic daily. NYC - the most densely population city at 8.4 Million within a relatively small area - makes sense for commuters. Dallas/Ft Worth - 5.7 Million people with roughly 35-50 miles of each other - train makes sense for commuters. Distance from Cleveland to Columbus, 125 miles - Cleveland to Dayton - 178 miles, Cleveland to Cincinnati 218 miles - how many people commute between cities daily. Trains just do not make sense as self sustaining with commuters. How many people will casually travel between these cities? I doubt enough to sustain them. Finally, every argument ever made is similiar to the DDN - heck, its only 17 Million in subsidies - what the heck? To coin an old Everett Dirksen line, a few million here, a few million there and pretty soon your talking big money.
By karon
December 5, 2010 9:22 PM | Link to this
Plenty of people will ride the Ohio city connections, also more businesses will be attracted to move more to the city with the trains , especially if they have their business in the other Ohio cities! Tourism will be a great factor with these trains which will help pay for alot of it! Gas prices are going up and Ohio must be prepared! Kasich start the trains!
By karon
December 5, 2010 9:51 PM | Link to this
If I keep saying the same thing over and over and over again, maybe people that are smarter than me will finally think I’m right.
By Right Is Wrong
December 5, 2010 9:53 PM | Link to this
Here’s something for you to chew on: Out of the 18 most populated states, only Hawaii and Ohio do not support passenger trains. Hawaii is an island with no railroads; Ohio just thinks it’s an island and naysayers here don’t think we have to change to remain a great state. Instead they think we should just sit still and let the rest of the world pass us by. That’s a good way to lose your edge and become a backwater. We are well on our way to becoming that backwater and oh, by the way gas just hit $3.09 here.
By awesome
December 5, 2010 9:55 PM | Link to this
Let me know when gas hits $15.00 a gallon, then trains will be economically feasible. You train people are so mind-numbingly thick-headed and ignorant it boggles the mind.
By c'mon people
December 5, 2010 9:59 PM | Link to this
Let’s go ahead and have the trains. I mean, no one will ride them and they’ll cost the taxpayers millions, but we’ll have them, and that alone will make Ohio a ‘great state’.
By Huh
December 5, 2010 10:10 PM | Link to this
@Awesome: You describe yourself. You guys are all alike…you say no one will ride without a shred of evidence to back up your arguments. You ignore real-life experience in other states which refutes what you say and THEN you say I’M thick headed and ignorant? You’re blind and that’s even worse.
By a better question
December 5, 2010 10:11 PM | Link to this
Instead of the headline: ‘Can 3C be saved?’, how about ‘Why would anyone with an ounce of sense want 3C?’
By of course
December 5, 2010 10:16 PM | Link to this
Yes, of course, we all know that if people ride trains in SOME other states, that means that people in Ohio will ride them without any doubt at all, even though there is tons of evidence that says otherwise. Don’t let the facts get in the way of your pipe dream.
By Huh
December 5, 2010 10:21 PM | Link to this
@a better question: I’m sorry…I keep forgetting that this is your state and I’m just in it. So sorry. @ awesome: I suppose it would be better to do nothing to help ourselves as gas prices rise?
By of course, again
December 5, 2010 10:26 PM | Link to this
Yes, as gas prices continue to rise, passenger rail is clearly the only alternative. And as others have already pointed out, gas prices would have to exceed $10 a gallon for rail to be economically preferable to a car, and rail would only do anyone any good if they were going to one of the few cities connected, and only if they were going during one of the few times the train departed/arrived at that city. Completely overpriced, not self-sustaining, and ridiculously inconvenient. Typical liberal program.
By love it
December 5, 2010 10:30 PM | Link to this
These debates are always great. The anti-train side always has some valid argument and the pro-train side usually comes back with ‘but other states have it’, ‘uh-huh’, ‘nuh-uh’, ‘people will to ride it’, ‘gas prices’, (insert other any other invalid argument here), etc.
By Huh
December 5, 2010 10:40 PM | Link to this
@ By of course: WHAT evidence? Just because you say so, doesn’t mean it’s true few will ride. Amtrak has broken ridership records in each of the past six years, other than 2009, when it recorded its second highest ever ridership. Every state that supports train serices are reporting record breaking ridership. Virginia just put on a train between Lynchburg and Washington that is mobbed with riders. This is happening everywhere and is happening here already with existing Amtrak trains. Ohio will be no different than these other states. Gas prices would have to hit $10/gal for trains to be justified? On what do you base that assertion? Gas only had to hit $4/gal in 2008 for people to start changing their travel habits. Transit systems, state supported trains and Amtrak were swamped with riders. $10/gal would probably be a calamity since we have no choice but to drive. At that price, you’d probably pay at least $120 a week to keep driving and that would force a lot of people off the road. Then what? And yes, connecting to the “few” cities, which happen to contain most of the route’s population makes no sense at all.
By Huh
December 5, 2010 10:49 PM | Link to this
@ love it: What valid argument? Saying no one will ride when real life experience shows otherwise? OH. I get it. When you say something it’s “valid.” When I say something it’s “invalid” no matter what the facts are. How simple. I should have known all along. I bow before your wisdumb.
By karon
December 5, 2010 11:21 PM | Link to this
Gas prices around new york city suburban areas are 3.21 cents and thousands of people ride the trains there everyday! Kasich start those trains!
By TRS
December 5, 2010 11:46 PM | Link to this
If trains are such a good idea, why doesn’t Amtrak pick up on it? Ah Huh, saying plenty of people will ride the train and other states do it is not proof of anything. Perhaps you should back up your claims with evidence before you encourage someone to waste alot of money on a boondoggle.
By paul
December 6, 2010 12:12 AM | Link to this
The trains won’t be high-speed and the fare will not be cheap. While people romanticize about riding the train, how many people will actually ride it on a Daily or even Weekly basis? How many people can take 6 hrs. to get to Cleveland? I can drive to Cleveland in 3-1/2 or 4 hrs. and drive back the same day on business. But if you take the train you most likely have to stay overnight.
By karon
December 6, 2010 12:30 AM | Link to this
Paul, yes the train fare will be cheap! Also these trains will help with tourism and tourist like hotels , resturants and shops near those trains! Tourism alone will help pay for most of the train cost, and trains are actually less expensive to maintain than highways! These trains will bring back Ohio cites! Most important the trains will create plenty of JOBS! Ohio people need jobs! Kasich start those trains!
By jimmie
December 6, 2010 1:18 AM | Link to this
Can 3C be saved? Gosh, I hope not.
By A Real Republican
December 6, 2010 1:46 AM | Link to this
As a Conservative and a Republican, can I point out to Kurt and a few others here, quoting Beck and Limbaugh isn’t helping. Coercing people onto trains? Obama making people hobos? Think before you say such stupid things. You are only being devisive, and not contributing anything to the discussion. Passenger rail, no one will ride it now. In the future, when gas prices are much higher, they will. They do all up and down the eastern seaboard, conservatives too. Will it work here? I would take it from Dayton to Cleveland when I have to travel for work. Less delays than the airport, I can use my phone and laptop the whole way, I can get up and walk around all I want, and I won’t have to pay extras for bags. It is already superior to flying, and that’s not even including the price, which if based on the Boston/NYC run, would be cheaper than air-fare. As was correctly pointed out above, its $400 Million being invested in Ohio when no one else is investing anything here. It’s infrastructure to create construction jobs here for Ohio workers, it’s permanent jobs, here in Ohio, for people who have to maintain the tracks and trains, and run them and the stations. Alternative modes of transportation help attract businesses, and tourism. It is $400 Million dollars into Ohio’s economy that no one else will contribute. $17 million in yearly expendatures is minimal in Ohio’s budget, and if Amtrac is any indication, could also become Federally subsidized. I guarantee that the high speed rail in Ohio will absolutely go unused for a long time. But that’s the thing about planning for the future, it’s better to have things in place for when you need them, than to have the added expense when you truly need it later. And since we need the jobs now, and not Pain Beck and Limbaugh rhetortic, Mr. Kasich, give us rail!
By Huh?
December 6, 2010 3:16 AM | Link to this
“Kurt, You sound like one of them doofuses that have 1,000 guns in your house….” Whats wrong with having 1,000 guns and what does it have to do with this story? If I could afford it(and my wife would let me), I would have 1,000.
By Right Said Fred
December 6, 2010 4:38 AM | Link to this
“A Real Republican” would not say such things. Only a pipe-smoking liberal from “Hahvad” would recommend implementing such a project when the facts show it is not feasible. Businesses could care less about trains and the only people touring this state are the ones passing through. And if you are trying to justify your position using Amtrak you won’t get much support.
By Socialist
December 6, 2010 4:58 AM | Link to this
I like roads, sewers, police and fire protection…call me a socialist!! Way to many fox “news” watchers here. Rail is the way of the future, people get your info from reliable source and not fox. The only people the republicans answer to are the rich…hence the $700 billion tax cut they want to continue which has not created any jobs in the last 9 years. Having rail would enable people to travel to bigger cities to work!!
By kurt
December 6, 2010 6:32 AM | Link to this
Yes, Socialist leads perfect clarity to the truth that all democrats lie. He is also probably on welfare of some sort, sucking out, not putting in. The Bush tax cuts got us out of the Clinton recesssion. Bush-4.7%unemployment-14,000 stock market, 53 months of record GNP growth, and a strong dollar. Then came total control of congress in 2006. Bush, miss him yet folks??
By too funny
December 6, 2010 7:32 AM | Link to this
Sad thing about all these people that want the trains is that, much like everyone else, they’ll probably only ride them once a month AT MOST, probably much less. These aren’t daily commuter trains like New York’s subways that run on a regular schedule taking you to many different stops in a city all day long, they are long distance trains that will take you to a far away city once a day and dump you there leaving you to get around from there, probably in a rented car or taxi. So there is more driving and cost, on top of the fact that you had to drive to get to the train in the first place. It might be a ‘nice to have’ thing for people that occasionally want to get away to Columbus, Cincinnati, or Cleveland for a day, but realistically how often is someone going to do that in a year? It just isn’t practically or cost effective no matter how much you WANT it to be.
By Huh
December 6, 2010 7:37 AM | Link to this
Forst off, someone used my name and made a post about guns. I don’t care if anyone has guns. It’s not my business. Got that? @Paul: If you took the time to actually read my last post, you’d see that that Amtrak ridership is rising, even on trains that pass thru Ohio at night. So yes, people here ARE riding, where the traisn do exist. Secondly, Amtrak does not have the funding to operate the trains themselves. That has to come from Ohio or some other source. This massive boodoggle will cost the average person $1.47 a year or 12 cents. In each of the first three years the altter amount is 2-1/2 censt. Some boondoggle. Highways? They cost $105.00. Hmmmm….
By Perspective
December 6, 2010 7:49 AM | Link to this
Okay A Real Republican, and others who are under the same misconception,3C will not be HSR. It won’t even be close to HSR. The limited schedule proposed will not be conducive to tourism or work commuting. Socialist,people who work in the bigger cities will still drive because of the limited schedule and the fact that you will either have to take a taxi or bus the rest of the way to work. Most of the jobs created will be jobs we,the taxpayers,have to fund because the train system as planned will not be economically feasible,it will lose money. If rail is going to become part of Ohio’s transportation system it needs to be HSR,not some slow riding train that was built just so we could say we now have a train connecting the 3C’s and Dayton.Come back when HSR is on the table.
By 'Huh' now officially dense as 'karon'
December 6, 2010 7:49 AM | Link to this
Your entire argument defeats itself, and many people have already pointed out the flaws. Enough flaws to soundly defeat your argument, and really, there are MANY more flaws in the proposal. But you and karon keep sticking your fingers in your ears, screaming ‘neener neener neener’ all you want, it won’t make you right, just willfully ignorant of the facts.
By Squirrellygirl
December 6, 2010 8:18 AM | Link to this
Our country is running a huge deficit. It’s past time to cut back. We should attack the huge spending generated by the government. This is one of those programs. It all adds up. And BTW, the people who are able to shop at tiffanys and buying silver plated sets are those reps who are making way too much money. How about we cut their salaries? That wouldn’t be such itsy bitsy savings, would it?
By Freda
December 6, 2010 8:29 AM | Link to this
If you want to see how high speed rail would do, look at the RTA buses. Full size buses running empty or nearly empty and we are constantly being asked to subsidize the buses with tax payer money. All so the west side can make it to the Dayton Mall. What a waste! Now let’s pay for high speed rail - how stupid are we? Wake up people.
By Freda
December 6, 2010 8:30 AM | Link to this
If you want to see how high speed rail would do, look at the RTA buses. Full size buses running empty or nearly empty and we are constantly being asked to subsidize the buses with tax payer money. All so the west side can make it to the Dayton Mall. What a waste! Now let’s pay for high speed rail - how stupid are we? Wake up people.
By Funny
December 6, 2010 8:38 AM | Link to this
This article is one of the funniest I’ve read in a LONG time. Thanks, DDN for the great chuckle! Ohio just spent years and millions of $$ on a program called “Rails to Trails” where miles and miles of UNUSED railroad tracks were ripped up and made into really nice bike/walking trails. Now we are supposed to support spending more $$ to rebuild rails AND support a program that will cost Ohioans millions and millions of $$? Seriously…one of the funniest article yet! :)
By exactly
December 6, 2010 8:43 AM | Link to this
maybe we should just cut out the middleman and just go straight to spending the money to build more bike/walking trails.
By ironmyke
December 6, 2010 8:44 AM | Link to this
“Can 3C be saved?” Yes, but it isn’t likely in the current political climate. Ohio is going to let this opportunity pass it by.
By let me fix that ironmyke
December 6, 2010 8:49 AM | Link to this
Ohio is going fortunately dodge this bullet.
By Silly People
December 6, 2010 9:00 AM | Link to this
If they build it people will use it. I lived in Chicago and used the Metra all the time even though I had a car. It was much easier to get to point A to point B with the use of the train. With the major traffic on our Interstate systems we could use another way to get around. Not to mention it would be much cheaper to send goods on the train vs the semi trucks.
By WOW
December 6, 2010 9:10 AM | Link to this
‘Silly People’ obviously has NO idea what kind of rail system is being debated here. Nothing they said applies AT ALL. Period. Just WOW.
By Rob
December 6, 2010 9:14 AM | Link to this
Just curious…why does this have to be a government project? If it were such a good deal, wouldn’t there be a company or two looking to build the rail and make a buck? After all, did our government build the airlines? Supported via tax credits and writeoff sure but they didn’t buy the planes.
By null
December 6, 2010 9:20 AM | Link to this
No no to the choo-choo. You who liked riding them in other cities and states are free to move there, PAY for and depend on them if you please.
By GladImGone
December 6, 2010 10:06 AM | Link to this
The US Inspector General’s report on rail just came out. Its findings were that construction and operating costs are always understated in planning stages and ridership is always overstated. This is a debacle because the Ohio plan basically anticipates ridership from Columbus to Cincy and from Columbus to Cleveland, but never the two together. No offense, but who wants to go from Cincy to Columbus through Dayton and Springfield? Nobody I know.
By NoName
December 6, 2010 10:26 AM | Link to this
Karon, trains are not going to bring businesses back to the cities. Companies are fleeing to more tax friendly states and overseas. The only thing that’s going to bring businesses back to Ohio is a significant change to our tax structure, and the necessary cut back of state/city spending that goes with it to make it attractive to business.
By yikes
December 6, 2010 10:28 AM | Link to this
Good article, but it’s scary how ignorant and hateful the comments are. The idiots that write these things are what make me worry about the future, not a relatively inexpensive (when compared to highways) train.
By Kasich is crooked
December 6, 2010 10:29 AM | Link to this
Lets be honest here. Kasich is a crooked politician and we’re all going to pay for his shortcomings
By Perspective
December 6, 2010 10:31 AM | Link to this
Ok,one last time since it seems so many of you don’t understand. 3C WON’T BE HIGH SPEED RAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! @Silly People Goods are already shipped by rail.If it was so much cheaper than trucks it would be used more.
By Chase
December 6, 2010 10:32 AM | Link to this
Kurt- you are truly in need of some very special help.
By TRS
December 6, 2010 12:29 PM | Link to this
Two points - I hear alot of emperical evidence that they get use but nothing furnished that attests to that fact. 2nd, inter city train systems are much different than 3C. The question isn’t will it take you from one side of a city with convenient stops in between - the question is how much repeat business will it get daily because it is commuter business which will have to sustain this. Finally, someone mentioned it earlier - government estimates always underestimate the cost. I put them in the same category of the healthcare savings from Obamacare. Conservative makes some good points but I’m still not sold that the usage is there.
By Mike R
December 6, 2010 1:08 PM | Link to this
@Silly People. There’s a HUGE difference between ChicagoLand’s Metra and Ohio’s proposed 3C+D. Metra is a commuter rail…with FREQUENT arrival/departures during rush hour and even regular service (within 60 minutes), just more of a “mik-run” with more stops during “off-peak hours.” I believe the last train back to Naperville leaves at 12:20 am. I took it many times…96% of Metra’s stations are within 50 miles of Randolph, Union Station, or Olgive Station in Chicago. Ohio’s 3C’s is a INTER-City line with only a few departures/arrivals daily. As far a frt. goes, Ohio isn’t projected to see an increase in frt. traffic…just a faster transit time through the state.
By Mark
December 6, 2010 2:05 PM | Link to this
I would guess 17m is a gross underestimate like all government run entities. A street car for Columbus would be a far better way to spend the money.
By paul
December 6, 2010 2:40 PM | Link to this
As much as I’d like to see trains as an option to driving, you cannot compare the 3C to N.Y. or Chicago trains. The number of people who drive to Columbus daily for their job doesn’t warrant or support the train. The best point was already made: if it was such a good project, private industry would have already figured out a way to have trains in Ohio. Commercial freight may make more sense, it would lessen the number of tractor trailers on the highway and save the roads, maybe… and Karon, if the fare is low for riders that means its just higher Taxes for the rest of us who won’t take the train more than once or twice a year.
By paul
December 6, 2010 2:42 PM | Link to this
As much as I’d like to see trains as an option to driving, you cannot compare the 3C to N.Y. or Chicago trains. The number of people who drive to Columbus daily for their job doesn’t warrant or support the train. The best point was already made: if it was such a good project, private industry would have already figured out a way to have trains in Ohio. Commercial freight may make more sense, it would lessen the number of tractor trailers on the highway and save the roads, maybe… and Karon, if the fare is low for riders that means its just higher Taxes for the rest of us who won’t take the train more than once or twice a year.
By Mathius Dillon
December 6, 2010 2:42 PM | Link to this
Saying Passenger rail investment won’t work in Ohio is equivalent to saying Ohio is not worth the investment. I believe the issue should be about providing a globally responsible transportation CHOICE (not control) to our residents. The masses of negative comments I have read on this debate forum are the result of fear mongering and doom-selling from SOME misguided republicans concerned mostly for their own pocketbooks. Supporters of passenger rail development in Ohio value more about our futures than our pocketbooks. In fact, we value our planet’s resources as well. Continuing ODOT’s Highways only investment policy is dangerous and irresponsible. For years our state has literally been planning for a future that we FACTUALLY could never afford. Our society’s current automobile usage and patterns of oil consumption are not sustainable over the next 50 years. We simply lack the resources for it. FACT. If we ignorantly continue these patterns, our society’s dependence on foreign oil will lead to our country’s demise as a leader in the world. This is not a political debate, it is a survival debate. Conservatives believe in high speed rail as well, however negative radicals like Kurt seem to pollute others opinions and scare them away from an otherwise FEASIBLE & SUSTAINABLE plan for Ohio’s future. Passenger Rail Investment is the only long term solution being offered that addresses our limited natural resources and necessity for clean energy policies. That is the real issue being ignored, not the economics behind funding passenger rail development. To address the issue of initial ridership, I believe “if you build it, they will come” as long as it offers convenience and affordability to its riders. Choosing environmentally responsible transportation over the harmful effects of automobile travel should be met with some form of incentives and tax cuts to ensure sufficient ridership numbers. Sacrifices by the individual need to be made before our society as a whole can move forward.
By wow
December 6, 2010 2:57 PM | Link to this
So many words from Mathius Dillon, and nothing in them makes a valid compelling debate for wasting money on the train project in Ohio. Also note he accuses Republican of ‘fear mongering and doom-selling’, then spends most of his post fear mongering and doom-selling. Classic lib. Oh yeah, and like the rest of the pro-train posters, he is WRONG. Period.
By NCF
December 6, 2010 3:07 PM | Link to this
How about if all of the Ohioans who are in favor of the 3C+D rail have the amount to support it removed from their paychecks — before taxes, so they’re not double taxed, of course — and the rest of us who aren’t in favor of the trains have to pay double-fare if we elect to ride the thing. I’m sure the people across the state where the 3C+D doesn’t go & the people in the pass-through areas will be more than happy to open their wallets and pocketbooks to support the rail system that connects these corridor cities. Right, Karon? The nice folks in Youngstown, Toledo, Lima, &c will be thrilled to know that they’re helping Cincinnatians get to the Cavs game in such a comfortable manner. I can just imagine their emphatic “whoop-dee-doo,” can’t you?
By Perspective
December 6, 2010 3:11 PM | Link to this
ARRGGG….3C WILL NOT BE HIGH SPEED RAIL! STOP REFERRING TO IT AS SUCH,IT IS NOT. Also much freight is shipped by rail.The 3C would use those same freight rail lines.It seems many of you seem to think that all freight is transported by truck and it isn’t. As for you Mathius Dillon,if we would start drilling for our own oil in the states we wouldn’t be dependent on foreign oil.Other countries are drilling away in the Gulf of Mexico (in waters nowhere near as deep as a mile) but Obama says no to the USA drilling there.Obama kills jobs(no oil drilling so oil rig workers are laid off) and encourages our dependence on foreign oil. Also why would commuters want to pay $40 to $76 a DAY to ride the train instead of drive.Over a week that’s $200 to $380 based on a 5 day work week. I don’t know about you but that is definitely not in my transportation budget. It is neither convenient(very limited schedule) or affordable.
By Mike R
December 6, 2010 3:26 PM | Link to this
Just a little over 40% of a barrel of oil goes into gasoline…Building a slow train that runs 3 times a day to either Cincy or Columbus isn’t going to wean America off of foreign oil. Only a sound energy policy will do that, and currently that’s not on Obama’s agenda.
By NCF
December 6, 2010 3:34 PM | Link to this
Commuting by rail is “the future”? Seems more like the past, to me. Telecommuting is faster, cheaper, AND greener, and is (& has been touted as) “the future.” Going back to rail fits the definition of insanity that liberals love to use: doing the same thing over again and expecting different results. Anyone remember that there used to be passenger rail all over Ohio? It’s not been all THAT long ago… I know I rode a train to Columbus once, before they stopped running the train. And there used to be rail between Dayton & Xenia, too. The question that needs to be addressed first is “why were the rail systems abandoned years ago?” Then “do those same reasons hold today?” The Bush administration committed $750 million over six years toward developing a maglev prototype… it’s been twenty years, and where are the maglev trains? Why aren’t we seeing the Amtrack Cardinal upgraded to HSR?
By Rider
December 6, 2010 5:09 PM | Link to this
For all of you with paved over brains ….you might not be willing or able to use alternate transportation but there are thousands that want that choice. You sit there happy as a lark as we build twice as many bridges and miles of highway more then we can maintain. Automobile prices and the cost of owning one climbs relentlessly, you don’t care you got it covered, today and don’t care about tomorrow. I don’t get a choice of what highways get built, why should you get a choice about alternative transportation?
By jeez
December 6, 2010 5:20 PM | Link to this
Well, obviously ‘Rider’ doesn’t get it either. Do you people just shut off your brains and ignore everything everyone says that proves you wrong. If ignorance is really bliss, you people have to be the most blissful individuals on this planet.
By Mike R
December 6, 2010 6:17 PM | Link to this
@Rider. When tax money is being used tax payers have a right to express their opinion and choose their mode of transportation. Those people speak their opinions about alternate trasnportation in many ways…Some do it in forums like this and many “speak” at the ballot box. More people voted for the guy who said he was going to pull the plug on the 3C+D…the people have made their choice loud and clear.
By Mark W
December 6, 2010 8:46 PM | Link to this
Question for the 3C+D supporters… What if it were modified to be just 3C (i.e., drop Dayton from the initial route)? Whatever demand there might be for train service between Cincy and Columbus would seem to me to be diminished by routing through Dayton because of all the extra time it would take. A direct line between Cincy and Columbus would be a lot faster at regular speeds than going via Dayton (and of course saves on a Cincy-Cleveland trip, too). It would also greatly reduce the construction and maintenance costs. Even in Europe, the high speed trains generally stop only in the biggest population centers. Middling cities (like Dayton) would be served by regional rail (although Dayton might eventually get some high speed connection on an Indy to Columbus route. So this might not be ideal for Dayton, but it’s more typical of what works in Europe. A demonstration line just between Cincy and Columbus or Columbus and Cleveland could also be done - at much lower costs - and would answer a lot of the “would people use it” questions.
By Concerned
December 7, 2010 5:34 AM | Link to this
Every one of the train supporters on here won’t ride the proposed 3-C unless the tax payer is subsidizing all aspects of their trip. Romanticizing the past will not deliver results in the future.
By NCF
December 7, 2010 9:26 AM | Link to this
Very interesting, Mark W. Yes, if they were to drop the +D, the rail would seem more viable — though still not High Speed. I suspect that Dayton was included in hopes of garnering more support. I wonder what Karon would say about the 3C without the D. I still say it’s only gong to be a workable solution to a relatively infinitesimal segment of Ohio’s 11.5 million residents. The “3C is ME” site estimates 478,000 riders. That’s around 4% of Ohioans that they EXPECT to ride the train. The other 96% of Ohioans will be footing the bill through their taxes. Telecommuting is faster, safer, greener, cheaper, &c.
By East Coast view!!
December 9, 2010 4:49 PM | Link to this
None of the reasons that trains work in the East Coast apply in Ohio. You are too sprawled, have no ‘real’ traffic (it took me three hours to drive 10 miles yesterday, D.C. beltway), and the differences in the cost of living do not warrant a long commute (try $3000 a month in NY for an apartment). Moreover, in the East Coast you don’t have a choice; there is so much congestion you can’t drive—you will never get there on time and if you do you won’t have anywhere to park. Can someone explain to me why you don’t build trains/subways/light rails/etc IN the cities (Day, Cincinnati, Columbus, etc.) first and then connect the intracity transit with intercity rail? It seems you are going about this in the wrong direction? Someone please comment.
By Mike R
December 9, 2010 5:53 PM | Link to this
East Coast View, you hit the nail on the head. It’s all a moot point now, though. Obama decided to punish Ohioans today and take our tax money and send it elsewhere. Light -rail for intracity/metro daily commuting would have received more support and been more beneficial to Cincy, Columbus, and even here in the Miami Valley. Cincy is building a streetcar “system,” but even they are going about it wrong…which will leave a bad and bitter taste for future projects. For starters, the route system directly overlaps the existing taxpayer supported bus system. Second, there are NO plans to integrate the bus system ridership via hubs with the streetcars. Third, the route, at its widest, is only 2 blocks. So, it’s not going to connect most sections/neighborhoods of the city together. As you pointed out, Ohio’s cities need light-rail/interurbans to connect the suburbs to the innercity, but with the exception of Cleveland (which already has a system) nothing has been proposed. For the record, I would have supported $400 Million for such a system, but the central planners in D.C. and their ilk here in Ohio don’t want a commuter system.
By Mike R
December 9, 2010 5:59 PM | Link to this
East Coast View, you hit the nail on the head. It’s all a moot point now, though. Obama decided to punish Ohioans today and take our tax money and send it elsewhere. Light -rail for intracity/metro daily commuting would have received more support and been more beneficial to Cincy, Columbus, and even here in the Miami Valley. Cincy is building a streetcar “system,” but even they are going about it wrong…which will leave a bad and bitter taste for future projects. For starters, the route system directly overlaps the existing taxpayer supported bus system. Second, there are NO plans to integrate the bus system ridership via hubs with the streetcars. Third, the route, at its widest, is only 2 blocks. So, it’s not going to connect most sections/neighborhoods of the city together. As you pointed out, Ohio’s cities need light-rail/interurbans to connect the suburbs to the innercity, but with the exception of Cleveland (which already has a system) nothing has been proposed. For the record, I would have supported $400 Million for such a system, but the central planners in D.C. and their ilk here in Ohio don’t want a commuter system.
By Riverdog
December 9, 2010 11:48 PM | Link to this
Looks like Bob Murray at Riverside has backed another winner. The train was a loser time for us to go about building some thing real Bob…The hard work was done before you screwed it up. Bring some jobs into Riverside !!Train stop indeed !!! Get work
By Joe
December 10, 2010 9:07 AM | Link to this
The train system would be as economical as RTA…I have never seen so many empty buses driving around and using our tax money to keep them on the road…It’s a waste of tax money…
By Kasich=Lost Jobs
December 13, 2010 12:12 AM | Link to this
Losing the 3C’s means Florida, California, New York, etc will be getting OUR stimulus money so they can improve their states’ infrastructure, which will create thousands of jobs and improve public transportation. It’s because of people like Kurt, that Ohio will remain in the dark ages.
By Mike R
December 13, 2010 8:28 PM | Link to this
Not so fast. California is in jeopardy of losing their high-speed rail. It’s significantly over budget, way behind schedule, and now some towns and communities are opposing it’s route. It may just be the next Yucca Mtn. Lots of money spent by our gov’t with nothing to show for it!!
By Build it and they will Ride It
December 14, 2010 2:47 AM | Link to this
The light weight idea logs that are against the “high speed trains” for Ohio have no vision of the future and will never connect the dots. First dot, a leading Wall Street firm JP Morgan just projected the price of oil at $120 a barrell by 2012, gas @ near $5 a gal. Second dot, $40 to $60 just for gas costs for round trip to Cincy or Columbus and parking costs $10 to $20 vs $6 to $10 High Speed train ticket, where riders can relax, read, use their computers even slept. Much safer and less stress in inclement weather. Third dot, the thousand of jobs and busineses created getting riders and freight to their final destinations. Fourth dot, Boomer demographics reaching their 60’s the largest pop. segment would ride the high speed train than drive in traffic any day of the week. Fifth dot, Ohio high speed train just the beginning, leading to a rail system from Ohio along I-75 to south Florida. In summary the people against never backup their rhetoric with facts, just say NO and name call.
By Mike R
December 14, 2010 11:09 AM | Link to this
Speaking of rhetoric and not facts. Ken Pendergrast, executive director of All Aboard Ohio, projected the cost of one-way tickets at $25.50 between Cleveland and Columbus. The Dayton to Cincy leg was estimated to be a little more than $14 and Dayton to Columbus more than $18. That’s more than double and close to triple the cost stated by the above commenter who claims to “stick” to the facts. There’s already an extensive frt. rail network in Ohio. As I’ve mentioned many times, the current mode of frt. transportation wasn’t going to change for almost 100% of shippers due to the 3C+D being constructed. Simple arthmetic—Dayton’s population base is approx. 60 miles from Cincy. The majority of cars today get well over 20 mpg., but use 20 mpg in our example and it will take 6 gallons to get there and back. If gas were $5/gal. that would be $30 dollars in gas NOT $40 to $60. Plus, once there people may need to take taxi’s, negating any savings from parking fees. Nice rhetoric though!! LOL, one last thing, I’m cleaning out old reports/analysis and just came across a CIBC report on Oil. They’re projecting oil could Avg. $150/bbl and continue to $200/bbl. But wait it gets better. They wrote that analysis in 2008 and that was their projection for this year!!!
By Mike R
December 14, 2010 11:22 AM | Link to this
Speaking of rhetoric and not facts. Ken Pendergrast, executive director of All Aboard Ohio, projected the cost of one-way tickets at $25.50 between Cleveland and Columbus. The Dayton to Cincy leg was estimated to be a little more than $14 and Dayton to Columbus more than $18. That’s more than double and close to triple the cost stated by the above commenter who claims to “stick” to the facts. There’s already an extensive frt. rail network in Ohio. As I’ve mentioned many times, the current mode of frt. transportation wasn’t going to change for almost 100% of shippers due to the 3C+D being constructed. Simple arthmetic—Dayton’s population base is approx. 60 miles from Cincy. The majority of cars today get well over 20 mpg., but use 20 mpg in our example and it will take 6 gallons to get there and back. If gas were $5/gal. that would be $30 dollars in gas NOT $40 to $60. Plus, once there people may need to take taxi’s, negating any savings from parking fees. Nice rhetoric though!! LOL, one last thing, I’m cleaning out old reports/analysis and just came across a CIBC report on Oil. They’re projecting oil could Avg. $150/bbl and continue to $200/bbl. But wait it gets better. They wrote that analysis in 2008 and that was their projection for this year!!!
By NCF
December 15, 2010 10:19 AM | Link to this
Nicely done, MikeR. And one major thing that “Build It” and others (or the same person under different IDs, possibly) fails to grasp is the real lack of ridership. I live in Riverside and work in Dayton. It takes about 10 minutes for me to get to work in heavy traffic, about 15 with the road construction at 35/75. That’s basically the door-to-door time. Taking the train would mean driving through traffic to the other side of the Air Force Museum, parking there, waiting for the train to arrive (at 10:31 making me VERY late for work,) sit comfortably on the train checking my email until it arrives at the Dayton station ten minutes later at 10:41, at which point I need to find a way to get to my place of employment on the West Side. Bus? I haven’t checked the bus schedule, but I think I would make it to work by lunchtime. The last bus leaving Dayton to Riverside arrives at 5:04. Basically, I’d be working about 4 hours a day doing this. Seriously, this is NOT worth it. I only post facts, and do not name call. Attempting to commute via the train would knock me from a full time job to part-time, assuming my company is willing to keep me under that circumstance. I doubt it. And this is me living close to the Riverside station. People living in other areas of Dayton make an even more ridiculous example of using the train to commute. Let’s say you want to counter with some wild and unsubstantiated claim about people commuting to Columbus. Great. Train leaves Dayton at 7:37, leaves Riverside at 7:47, and arrives in Columbus at 9:08. What time does the employer in Columbus want business to start? How many hours would you get to work there? You have to catch the train back to Dayton before 6:43, and you’ll be back in Riverside at 8:01, or in Dayton at 8:11. You want to find out how many people would REALLY ride the train? Show them the train schedule, let them contemplate the ridiculousness of it, then ask them. Um… you HAVE looked at the schedule, haven’t you?
By NCF
December 15, 2010 11:26 AM | Link to this
On “name calling”… *”Scary” calls Kurt a “doofus.” *”unreal” calls the train supporters “idiots.” *”so dense” calls Karon & train supporters “feeble-minded imbecile” *seconded by “painfultruth” *”wow” calls Karon “clueless” (this may or may not qualify as ‘name-calling’, though, but I am counting it here.) *”karon is right” obliquely called train opposers “nazis.” Obliquely. *”National Limited” calls people “car-crazy highway-happy idiots” and “Railophobes.” *”National Limited” then calls “nope” a Dope.” *someone then calls “National Limited” and Karon “slow.” *”Huh” throws out “naysayers.” Do you count this? *”Huh” then claims that someone called him “thick-headed and ignorant”, but that never happened here. Proceeds to call train opposers “blind.” *”Huh” refers to “love it”s “wisdumb.” *”Right SAid Fred” calls “A Real Republican” a “pipe-smoking liberal.” This may or may not be an epithet. I think he meant it that way. Did he mean a real pipe?? *”Socialist” calls people “fox news watchers”. Is this an epithet? I think he meant it that way. *Kurt calls “Socialist” a welfare recipient. *”Huh” and Karon are called “dense.” *train opposers are called “silly people.” *”yikes” calls train opposers “ignorant and hateful” (hateful??) and “idiots.” *someone calls Kasich “crooked” *Chase calls Kurt “in need of some very special help” *”wow” calls “Mathius Dillon” a “classic lib” *”Rider” claims train opposers have “paved over brains.” *”jeez” counters that train supporters have “shut off their brains” *”Build it” then concludes this listing with calling train opposers “light weight idea logs” before accusing those of us who oppose the 3C of “name calling.”
By NCF
December 15, 2010 11:34 AM | Link to this
That’s the way I counted them, anyway. Your results may vary, but I think your conclusion will fall the same way. For those of you counting with me, that’s 9 name-calling posts by train opponents. For shame, fellow train opponents. But the 3C supporters used name-calling 14 times! They often accuse because they often do. That last post by “Build It”, for instance. Classic example. But I would like to point out that the ever-persistent Karon has not done any name-calling here. I can’t think of any posts that Karon has called anybody names. Maybe you have. She’s wrong about the trains, but she’s right in her lack of name-calling. Kudos, Karon.