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StumbleuponStreetcars could revitalize city, proponents say
> What would you think of a streetcar system in Dayton?
Wednesday, September 03, 2008
The co-chair of a task force seeking to establish a streetcar loop between downtown Dayton and the University of Dayton area remains optimistic despite a consultant's study that set a high price tag for the project.
Last year, Greater Dayton Regional Transit Authority officials estimated the 4-mile loop could be built for about $40 million and would cost about $700,000 a year to run.
Consultant Parsons Brinckerhoff looked at other streetcar systems and estimated the system would cost $125 million to build and $2 million a year to operate.
Mike Ervin, who co-chairs the streetcar task force with GDRTA Executive Director Mark Donaghy, said the consultant's study is important in that it gives streetcar proponents a clear picture of the challenge they face.
"One thing the consultant concluded is that the project as outlined is physically possible," Ervin said. "The next thing we have to explore is the financing to make it happen."
Dayton and other cities around the country had thriving streetcar systems at the turn of the last century. But the rail cars powered by overhead electrical lines were replaced over time by self-powered buses.
In recent years, streetcars have made a comeback in some cities. Ervin said they've been major hits all over the country.
"Street Smart: Streetcars and Cities in the Twenty-first Century" is a book published in 2006 by Reconnecting America, a nonprofit group that focuses on transportation and community development. Ervin says the book cites several cases where streetcar projects have benefitted cities. For example, Little Rock, Ark., a city of comparable size to Dayton, established a 2.5-mile streetcar loop in 2004 for a cost of about $20 million. The project helped stimulate $200 million in private investments, according to "Street Smart."
Ervin said where streetcar lines have gone in, a sense of excitement and renewal has followed. Retail, restaurant and entertainment venues tend to spring up close to the tracks, which in turn stimulates investment in other properties.
Ervin said streetcars can make living in an urban center more attractive because people can hop on and off a streetcar to get around. That reduces the need for cars and parking.
"Think of what it could mean to an area like South Park," Ervin said. "For Dayton, this could be one of the biggest economic boosts the city has had ever."
Many supporters of the Dayton streetcar project view the loop from Caldwell Street to Third and Main streets as a first step toward a streetcar system that would also connect the region's major aviation-related tourist attractions. But the larger system has almost no chance of being developed if the starter loop isn't built.
Ervin said the next step will be for the task force to take a hard look at whether sufficient funding can be acquired.
"We know it sounds like a lot of money, but just think of the amount we spend every year on roads and bridges," Ervin said. "This is another piece of important public infrastructure."
Comments
By W. K. Lis
September 5, 2008 9:06 PM | Link to this
Daniel’s comment about crime downtown is downright wrong. To see what streetcars can do to a city, visit Toronto. Toronto never got rid of them and people live, work, and play downtown (including weekends). It has currently 248 streetcars, and plans to replace them with 204 low-floor longer new ones. And in addition, there are plans for an expansion into the suburban areas of Toronto, which will require an additional 480.
By daytonian63
September 5, 2008 2:19 AM | Link to this
I think the street car system will be a great addition to the city, creating innovative trasnsportation. I have also always had a dream - that from Piqua to Cincinnati there could be a light rail system that runs along the river during most parts and stops at major stops along the way, i.e cities , except airport and could create a huge boom in economic prosperity. all those gas dollars wasted for daytonians driving to bengals and reds games, you can just hop on the tram and take a trip to cinci
By Lisa Reardin
September 4, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this
Gotta love this region - no matter what anybody proposes the ignorant morons come out and bash it and then wonder why this ENTIRE REGION is dying while other cities are thriving because they actually support and DO the things that get shot down here.
By Jeff
September 3, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this
The same uninformed nay-sayers continue to make unconstructive posts. Those who are bashing the streetcar concept are the same people who have no knowledge of what downtown Dayton is really like. Those who live in the ‘burbs and visit the Greene won’t ride the streetcar. Then again, they aren’t the target market. Great strides are being made to rebuild South Park and the Fairgrounds areas. Many UD students come from urban areas and appreciate urban living. They don’t fear public transit.
By Mike
September 3, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this
In response to By Skeptic: Your right Skeptic, the small town mentality of most of the people of Dayton have no idea what life could be like, because they have never been to Chicago, New York or Boston. Those cities are so much fun to live and visit. Our small town mentality keeps us in the “Dayton Bubble”. Daytonians think, this is as good as we can have it. Small minds, live small lives.
By April
September 3, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this
That’s all fine and dandy but how does that help people that don’t go to UD? Granted, I stay far from that place because it’s always congested and no parking so I can see how a transit system like that would help…but really…it’s such a small niche for a whopping price tag. I’d rather see a monorail or other mass transit (train/subway) leading from Dayton to the suburbs!
By clean up downtown
September 3, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this
if you want to clean up downtown, take the 40 million and move the rta and greyhound somewhere else. that would be a good start. businesses, companies, people in general will come back downtown. just my two cents.
By Bod
September 3, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this
IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME. Street cars are a brilliant idea. Unfortunately, the lobbyists groups for the oil companies and auto manufacturers will send out misinformation and get everyone to talk against it. Plus, you will ALWAYS have your “naysayers”, like we had w/the baseball park.
By karonthisisyou
September 3, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this
Karon, if you are out there all of the crying you have been doing about streetcars, here ya go have at it lol!
By Rob
September 3, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this
Are you serious? Street cars? Lets think of the most ridiculous way we can to waste money and call it revitalization. We already have a good transportation system downtown that uses electricity. Why not a horse drawn Subway system to UD. That would really revitalize the city. I can see it now. Please tell me no one in this city is stupid enough to believe that this will help downtown in any way. The people who came up with this idea should be run out of town ” on a rail”
By Daniel Needs Help
September 3, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this
Daniel, truth is…you have problems. If you have a problem with minorities’ maybe you should just leave the country! I would tell you what country, but unfortunately there is no country that’s just one race. I work downtown and I’ve never had any problems with blacks, whites, Latinos, etc. Crime and poverty has no color…idiot! But back to the subject, it would be nice to have something new downtown.
By BuckeyesBoss
September 3, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this
Dayton Patented, Originals Wanted! LOL!
By daniel
September 3, 2008 9:22 AM | Link to this
to many blacks,illegals and crime downtown!!! its not safe to ride anything going downtown!!they need to rid of the mayor and all the other blacks trying to run the city!!! they are for the blacks only and do all for the blacks and the west side and nothing for the whites!!
By Samuel
September 3, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this
My vote is for a series of tubes to interconnect the city. Clean, safe, fast, and easy. You know, like the ones on Futurama.
By Michael
September 3, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this
Dayton has a ton of potential, but with leadership that more closely resembles a large pothole it will never be realized. If these idiots could stop micromanaging long enough to see the big picture, downtown would be booming right now. A streetcar? Come on! It would be better to invest in Lyle Lanley’s Monorail before he gets to North Haverbrook! Actually, I recall an idea to link Cincinnati and Dayton with a light rail system. Although more costly, it would beat a streetcar system!
By Frank
September 3, 2008 9:05 AM | Link to this
Instead of streetcars there should be a nice walking path that interconnects Deeds Park, Fifth Third, Downtown shops and bars, the Oregon, and possibly Brown street. A wide, well light, safe walking path that is segregated from the street traffic would be better than streetcars. It wouldn’t take long for the streetcars to be loaded down with the same people that keep everyone else from riding the buses.
By You kindding me?
September 3, 2008 8:51 AM | Link to this
Skeptic, I don’t think you can put Dayton in the same class as Boston, NY, or Chicago. There is a slight difference between several million people who want to live in those cities, than a city that forces their employees to live in theirs, while everyone else flees like rats on a sinking ship.
By Simple
September 3, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this
Another simple idea from a city with a high school like student government. Now we will have new street cars to take people Out of the city. Come on use the money to make downtown more fun. Interconnect the buildings together like Cincy and make it more like the Greene.
By Uncle Fester
September 3, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this
This is just another urban bourgeois bohemian pipe dream.
By secretsquirell
September 3, 2008 8:41 AM | Link to this
Maybe they can go by the water fountains in the river as part of a tour on wasted tax dollars, and make sure they stay out of the way of the empty mass transit busses.
By Jim 5
September 3, 2008 8:32 AM | Link to this
Nostalgic: Yes. Practical: No.
By Skeptic
September 3, 2008 8:31 AM | Link to this
It is sad to see such a small-town mentality, lacking in any vision for the future. I wonder of most of these naysayers have ever been to a large city with true mass transit. Chicago, New York, Boston - you name it. If we can both reduce dependency on oil and make downtown more exciting, it will be worth the cost. Oh, by the way downtown is very safe. I’ve worked here 7 years without a single problem. With more people turning their backs on suburbia, it can only get better!
By joe
September 3, 2008 8:29 AM | Link to this
The old street car system never should have been removed. Same with the train station. I have not seen a comparison between the cost of running the RTA lines vs running an electric street car. Granted I think this is a good step for Dayton especially in the post oil world. I would be more for rebuilding the train station downtown first then working on light rail. The sad thing is that the city proposes these plans as a novelty for tourism, instead of an actual transit line.
By Julie
September 3, 2008 8:23 AM | Link to this
Great, another vehicle for the thugs to take over.
By Mike
September 3, 2008 8:18 AM | Link to this
I remember hearing Abner Orick say, the Dragons wouldnt last five years. well they have. will a street car make a difference who knows. I am of firm belief you have no right to complain unless you do someting about it! and that is what has happened in Dayton. people have moved out.
A city needs a certain amount of Professionals, like Police, Doctors, Lawyers etc. to live in it to be vital. and of course major industry we had that it left,it is not everyones fault. it happens.
By Stacy Law
September 3, 2008 8:08 AM | Link to this
Who are these people who think stuff like this will work?
“Come on, Maude, let’s drive downtown so we can find a PARKING METER to leave the car at while we ride the streetcar to Brown Street…”
By Danny
September 3, 2008 7:36 AM | Link to this
Jim, I think your theory could very well be correct if viable fuel alternatives are not found very quickly. Why do people bash ideas thrown out there every time? Nothing is for sure, but the idea of this sounds alright to me. As a recent UD grad, those kids DO NOT want to go to the Greene. That would mean they would need to drive or take a cab ride at least 10 to 15 minutes long. This is also a question of what comes first, young professionals or jobs in downtown. It’s an idea to explore.
By John
September 3, 2008 7:35 AM | Link to this
Who will ride this overpriced buggy? Not the yuppies from UD, they were taught that only welfare leaches, bums and criminals rely on public transportation. What will they do when they get to downtown anyway? Of course these buggies will need a few of Rhines clones to run them at big tax payer paid salaries. Who will get the kickbacks from the contracts? How about that free use of the condo in Miami?
By painfultruth
September 3, 2008 7:34 AM | Link to this
Dayton needs a streetcar system as much as it needs another major employer to close. Those living in their fantasy world believing streetcars will save Dayton have as much sense as cabbage, and will push to waste 40 million dollars of YOUR TAX MONEY. The “survey” mentioned is from a pro-public transit group. JOBS and CRIME FREE areas will bring back Dayton. Streetcars won’t!
By Chris
September 3, 2008 7:25 AM | Link to this
Dayton is a JOKE !!! Glad I left there many years ago. What draw is there to Downtown, bums laying in alleys? Drug dealers on the corner? Prostitutes on Third & Main? Use the 40 Mil to make Downtown like the Greene and you might have something. Last one out - turn out the lights!!
By jps
September 3, 2008 6:42 AM | Link to this
This city council cannot even negotiate with Krogers to help downtown residents, how in the world do they think they will pull this off? I would suggest getting the necessities completed before residents follow the business community and moves out of downtown due to the city fooling around with them.
By Chris
September 3, 2008 6:29 AM | Link to this
It’s interesting, a streetcar can revitalize the downtown area. It would be a ‘boom to South Park’. these are great theories, and using Little Rock as an exemplar -‘comparable in size’ I would have liked to have seen a city in the same economic state as Dayton (not just based on size) and the Miami Valley to make this study plausible, to truly see quanitfiable proof of improvement. Then, and maybe only then…
By Jim
September 3, 2008 6:27 AM | Link to this
At some point, an electrified mass transit system will be a necessity. The automobile industry will never deliver on an efficient alternative fuels car at a price/performance that is affordable to the average houshold. It is SUBURBIA and not central cities like Dayton that will wither and die during the 21st century. Our suburban brethren who cut and ran from Dayton and its social problems during past decades must wise up (as they will!) and begin reinvesting in the region’s core.
By Jim
September 3, 2008 6:18 AM | Link to this
Physically possible? Any streetcar system running along main connecting the old downtown business district with UD would necessitate removing both Dayton’s Civil War monument and the aviation monument on Main. Perhaps desirable but unlikely to command much public support. Also the stretch of street running past the hospital and fairgrounds is only four lanes wide. The streetcar rails would take up the two center lanes leaving only the two outer for cars—and ambulences!
By bigrob
September 3, 2008 6:08 AM | Link to this
dayton is a dying city….the street car is not needed….what a waste that would be….if you want to go downtown…drive….catch the bus…or walk..STOP TRYING TO FEED A DEAD HORSE!
By Tim
September 3, 2008 5:43 AM | Link to this
Why? Follow the money - see where it stops.
By Dan
September 3, 2008 5:35 AM | Link to this
We can call it “A streetcar named WTF????”
By LMAO
September 3, 2008 5:22 AM | Link to this
It would take a special kind of idiot to think streetcars would do anything other than flush $40 Million down the drain,(plus, don’t forget, anothe $700,000.00 annually!) in a city that already can’t afford adequate stret maintenance or to enough police.
On the other hand, if they unveil a nifty slogan about it…..
By upearly
September 3, 2008 5:21 AM | Link to this
What an incredible waste of $40,000,000! For that amount, you could buy each rider a car, fill it with gas, and have millions to spare! There is already a bus line. And this would bring in more revenue to the city? Those UD kids don’t want to go downtown, they want to go to the Green.
By Wordell
September 3, 2008 2:17 AM | Link to this
I will enjoy being a captive on your streetcar. I am heavily armed, carry a weapon to protect myself, and will enjoy defending myself against all of the Rhine McClin’s supporters that have a problem with me riding “thier” streetcar. It’s amazing how quickly her supporters start speaking English I can understand, and follow exact directions that I “ax” them to understand, when exposed to a positive motivational force. As Rodney said: “Can’t we all just get along???” Don’t think so, “Homey”.
By john nully
September 3, 2008 1:22 AM | Link to this
Uh hu and how long will it take to pay for this system . The city is in the red now , i wonder who’s going to pay for this and how ?
By Monorail
September 3, 2008 1:10 AM | Link to this
Lyle Lanley: Well, sir, there’s nothing on earth Like a genuine, Bona fide, Electrified, Six-car Monorail! What’d I say? Ned Flanders: Monorail! Lyle Lanley: What’s it called? Patty+Selma: Monorail! Lyle Lanley: That’s right! Monorail! [crowd chants `Monorail’ softly and rhythmically] Miss Hoover: I hear those things are awfully loud… Lyle Lanley: It glides as softly as a cloud. Apu: Is there a chance the track could bend? Lyle Lanley: Not on your life, my Hindu friend. Barney: What about us brain-dead slobs? Lyle Lanley: You’ll be given cushy jobs. Abe: Were you sent here by the devil? Lyle Lanley: No, good sir, I’m on the level. Wiggum: The ring came off my pudding can. Lyle Lanley: Take my pen knife, my good man. I swear it’s Springfield’s only choice… Throw up your hands and raise your voice! All: Monorail! Lyle Lanley: What’s it called? All: Monorail! Lyle Lanley: Once again… All: Monorail! Marge: But Main Street’s still all cracked and broken… Bart: Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken! All: Monorail! Monorail! Monorail! [big finish] Monorail! Homer: Mono… D’oh!