By Oldprof

April 12, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Once again, we get lots of arguing about the trees but no fix for the forest. This levy is ANOTHER in an endless series of state legislators not doing their job. We all pay taxes, and we all should receive our share of government services, but our legislator instead says “we won’t give you your share of revenues unless YOU vote to increase your own taxes.” This is true not only for school finances. When will the people of Ohio deliver a sufficiently stern rejection to the wrong-headed elected officials who have maintained THIS mess of a tax system?

By Scott Elliott

April 11, 2007 7:54 PM | Link to this

Just to clarify in response to Rick, I don’t have a personal stake in the levy or a position on it. It’s also not my job to endorse or oppose candidates. That’s not something I could even ethically do. I think if you speak to anyone who has run for school board in the past eight years, they will all tell you I treated them fairly and even handedly and covered their races professionally.

By Rick

April 11, 2007 6:21 PM | Link to this

wellwhynot, you ask a good question, why don’t those who oppose the levy run? The answer is simple: They would be crucified by the education blobocracy. Obviously the DDN, from Scott to the editorial board would oppose someone who opposes this levy. If the candidate were white, shouts of “racism” would resound. At every community meeting there would be parents, teachers, administrators and those who just want government to spend more money-these folks would verbally assault the candidates. Hate mail and telephone calls are guaranteed. Such a candidate would NEVER get a fair hearing.

By wellwhynot

April 11, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this

First to Dem. Nat. Con: You are adding another issue to the problem of school funding. I’m not sure what course(s) you are referring to when you speak of “crap courses”. If you are advocating literally returning to the basic 3 R’s, there are two problems with that. First, many of the courses are mandated by state law in an effort to give students a well-rounded education. Second, what you are suggesting by this is that Dayton students be given a substandard education that does not allow the best students to compete with other local students. However, these issues in no way solve the funding problem. The thought of the unions or teachers “pandering” to the students is actually quite amusing. No one would like to see the behavior and attitudes of the students change more than the teachers. Of all the people in the equation (parents, teachers, administration, school board, students, public) teachers have the least control. Parents and the public have the most control. To Rick: If I had a solution to the problem, I would be a very wealthy person. This is a statewide issue. One of the govt. solutions was Head Start. That is basically pouring money into the schools to give disadvantaged young children the experiences and basics that most children get from their parents. That is an example of what I meant by “equalize”. The only answer I have to that is to somehow force parents to be parents. But enfocement is the real problem. Schools cannot force parents to care. We cannot force parents to teach their children respect. We cannot force parents to teach their children socially acceptable behaviors. We cannot force parents to properly feed or clothe their chldren. Jammin has brought up one good point about tax abatements. If a business is granted a tax abatement, they should still be required to pay the full amount to the schools. The children shouldn’t have to suffer so that big business can get richer. Although other states have county-wide systems I can’t imagine the “Oakwoods” of the state going along with it. I know Baltimore has county schools but according to residents I know there, it doesn’t seem to help the inner city schools. They have just as many or even more problems as Dayton. It would be interesting, however, if someone would do an in-depth study to see if the benefits would out-weigh the negatives. Barb, you are right. The cuts will be made directly affecting the students. Your idea to have the board put in writing what they plan to do with (or even without) the money is an interesting idea. Apparently, the Chamber of Commerce is comfortable with the answers the board gave them because they have endorsed it. But I honestly don’t believe that is the real reason most people will vote it down. The bottom line is that most people who are against the levy simply want to keep their money in their own pockets. They can give all the excuses they want but they just don’t add up. It is amazing that none of the vocal anti-levy folks ever run for the school board. If they don’t like the way the board spends the money, then they need to get in there and help make the decisions. Or at least, go to the meetings and be a vocal participant. Then they would find out first hand how and why the board members make their decisions. If people would compare the “have” schools with the “have not” schools, they would be amazed at the differences in programs available to students. What students in Dayton receive doesn’t compare to what is available to students in districts such as Oakwood or Beavercreek. The money this levy is supposed to generate won’t come close to closing that gap. And Daytonian: Again I say, who is that “someone”. Ever heard of the poem that speaks about “I always thought someone else would do it until I realized I was someone?” Well, so far, no someone’s have come forward. Look at Fairborn. They can’t get a levy passed and are looking at the state taking them over. The community just keeps waiting for “someone else” to do it. And by the way, I’m not trying to tell anyone how to vote. I just want people to understand the other side of the issue.

By Derek

April 11, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

I would also like to add the endorsement of an imbibing chamber means little to me and should others as well. If the goal is 15 mils then divide this into 3 or four smaller levies, up the accountability, and submit them yearly provided the citizens approve of what has been done so far. This is just my humble opinion.

By Derek

April 11, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

I might be inclined to vote for the levy if someone could show me tangible improvement since the last. Better schools are a catalyst/stepping stone to better communities. I would rather pass a levy to help people in the lower income areas afford home improvements and get better home loans/rates. Huge area of discrimination in Dayton but that is another issue. The improvement I refer to is not just academically but structurally, administratively, etc. I see a lot of torn down buildings and not much re/new builiding taking place; obvious exception was the revamping of the administrative outfit. I just get the sense we the people of Dayton have been intentionally under-informed about how the $’s were spent last time around and where the new $’s will be spent. I am not ready to have my mortgage go up that much for an ill-conceived and poorly managed levy.

By Happy Homeschooler

April 11, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this

Again, even with more money, you cannot force a disinterested child to learn. There was a district (I believe it was the Kansas City, MO district) that in the late 80’s started spending massive amounts on education. The best science labs, textboks, an olympic sized swimming pool, 13-to-1 ratio in every class, higher pay for teachers, even bringing in teachers from foreign countries to teach foreign languages (beginning in kindergarten). This is just a small sampling of what they spent money on. I believe that by the time they were said and done, the total spent was somewhere near 2 billion dollars. Those that say more money is the solution would expect that test scores would soar, correct? Nope, didn’t happen. Scores dropped, drop-out rates increased, and the black/white achievement gap did not narrow. In fact, the district did so poorly that they even lost their accreditation for a time. I’m really not convinced that DPS will do better with more money. Why throw more money at the problem? They’ll just come up with another excuse as to why students aren’t doing well.

By Daytonian

April 11, 2007 8:26 AM | Link to this

Dear Levy Supporters: Ya all act like the DPS hasn’t gotten a dime from anyone to run those schools! How do you think they’ve been operating to-date?? The issue is why they need LOTS more $$ on top of dropping enrollments, mismanagement, and a HUGE construction levy passed a couple of years ago. Don’t act like those kids aren’t getting an education today! This levy will cost ONLY City of Dayton property owners $500 annually per $100,000/house value. There is only so much $$ available from property owners! PS. Anyone interested in buying a house in Dayton?

By Rick

April 11, 2007 7:40 AM | Link to this

wellwhynot, you state, “As long as we keep getting children who are unprepared for learning, unwilling to put forth any effort to learn, as long as we have uncooperative parents who don�t place any value on education, money will have to be the closest thing to an equalizer we have.” Sounds to me that with those kids, we could still spend a million dollars per child and still end up with an uneducated student. What do you propose for those kids other than spend more money?

By Jammin

April 11, 2007 6:31 AM | Link to this

There has to be another way to fund schools. The Wal Marts and Krogers amongst others are sitting within our city limits making MILLIONS and getting tax abatemants. It should also be considered to go to a county school system-a form of revenue sharing that people would’nt like, but would be better for the children.

By Democratic Natl Convention

April 10, 2007 8:31 PM | Link to this

For wellwhynot: It’s not my job to come up with a solution. However if I was ever asked, my reply would be get rid of the crap courses and go back to the basics. That has been the real problem. As for the teachers, or rather the unions, stop pandering to “the children” and light a fire under the students. Play time is over!!!

By wellwhynot

April 10, 2007 7:25 PM | Link to this

Daytonian: WHO is that “someone”? This issue has been thrown around for years and so far no one has come up with an idea. It seems to me that the people who are most against levies should be more than willing to come up with a solution. That is why I am convinced that the way the schools are funded isn’t really the issue with most voters. It is simply that they don’t want to spend any of their money to support the schools. They seem to forget that someone paid for their education but now they are unwilling to give back. And Dave brings up the same point my parents always made. That someone had paid for their education and they had a responsibility to do everything they could to give the next generation the same opportunity they had. Although they weren’t by any standard wealthy, they never voted against a school levy. And Dave is right about another issue: those with an education will be less likely to cost us interms of crime and welfare. As to why the schools waited so long before asking for a levy and then asking for such a big one, well if they had asked for a small one 8-10 years ago and then were asking for another small one now, there would be just as many people screaming that they “Just had a levy”. They schools can’t win. For those who don’t want to “waste their money on kids who don’t care”, what would you say to the students who do care and despite all odds against them are working hard and doing their best? Sorry, you don’t count?

By Barb

April 10, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

I hope people realize that it is indeed the students who will suffer. I think if the levy does not pass the Board and Superintendent will teach everyone a “lesson.” They will cut anything that is beneficial to students and continue to maintain two buildings, and unnecessary staff. Perhaps it is time for the District to say what they are willing to give up if the community gets behind the levy because I am sure if the levy does not pass you will see teachers, books, desks, supplies etc. cut to the individual buildings and to the students. Sports, music, art will also be gone because to the Board that is not as important as a second building for their comfort. I feel that people are trying to send a message to the board and superintendent but I think they will miss the point of the message and become even more vindictive towards the people that count; the students. Perhaps the community leaders need to force the district to put in writing what they will do to manage money correctly if the levy passes. To get into writing how the levy will benefit students and not administration. Yes this in unorthodox and not typically done but lets see how eager the board is to put students first. Let’s hope that our community leaders step up to the plate and force the Board of Education to become accountable for the sake of Dayton and the students. It might be time to step on some toes. Why are our leaders not willing to take a stand one way or another?

By Bob

April 10, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this

Dayton’s unemployment rate is one of the highest in the nation, high crime rates, what incentive do we have to pass another levy? We have been pooring lot’s of dollars into the Dayton School System for years and the quality of Education keeps dropping, maybe a shake up in the system is needed, maybe the State Board needs to take over for awhile

By Dave

April 10, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this

I have misgivings about this levy — it’s a huge jump and pretty hard to swallow. Spread over 16 years, it’s not that big, but it appears they set themselves up for problems by letting us keep our money until they absolutely had to have it. Still, looking at the cost of the levy, I remember my Dad. He never made much money farming, but he paid more taxes to the school system than a lot of apartment complexes did. I told him it didn’t seem fair, and he said I was right, but just think how much it would end up costing us all if all those kids didn’t get an education and couldn’t get jobs? Better to pay a lot to the schools now than to pay even more to crime and to welfare later.

By Daytonian

April 10, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this

Dear wellwhynot: If the levy’s keep failing at the polls then I’m sure someone would come up with a better way to fund schools. VOTE NO! I can’t afford the ever increasing taxes levied on me in the City of Dayton!

By Happy Homeschooler

April 10, 2007 1:21 PM | Link to this

Charteschoolhater- What were the changes in the state rules that caused the DPS to appear as though they have actually improved? I have never looked into that, but had heard something similar a few months back. I agree about voting no on this levy. Throwing more money at a problem does not solve the problem. The money will still be mismanaged, there will still be parents that don’t care enough about the education of their children to make sure that the child goes to school prepared to learn, and the kids will still not value their free education. Until the parents and the kids care more about the education they are receiving, nothing will help. I grew up in DPS, and overall the kids in my classes just wanted to ‘get by’. They didn’t see the need for actually learning the material and making something of themselves. More programs and better books would not make those kids learn more. I heard another homeschooler (former public school teacher) use the analogy that she could have stood in front of her class all day long and thrown peanuts at them, but that wasn’t the same as eating. Having more money does not mean that the child will actually be learning; they have to want to do their part also. Don’t waste taxpayer dollars- vote NO!

By wellwhynot

April 10, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

Buford, I am confused. How is the school board/DPS “arrogantly” going back to ask for more money? How else would they get the money? They certainly can’t just ask. There is absolutely no other way for a school district in the state of Ohio to get an increase in their funding. Although I understand citizens not wanting to pay additional money for anything they don’t want to spend it for, until the state (read-legislators AKA as citizens) come up with a new way to fund the schools this is our current system of funding. I hear a lot of people complaining about the unfairness of the funding system, but so far I haven’t heard anyone come up with something better. If our legislators cannot do it, maybe a group of plain old citizens needs to form a group and figure it out themselves. Anyone reading want to spend their time to do that? And you may be right about how much additional money will help the schools/students. One thing is for sure, it will help some. As we teachers are constantly told, we have to do the best with what we are given. As long as we keep getting children who are unprepared for learning, unwilling to put forth any effort to learn, as long as we have uncooperative parents who don’t place any value on education, money will have to be the closest thing to an equalizer we have. Money for smaller class sizes, money for materials, money for training. How many of the people on here who are complaining about the levy have ever been to even one board meeting? How many have visited a school to find out if the rumors they heard are true? How many have the time and knowledge to volunteer but don’t?

By alwazaprincess

April 10, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

I have been reading this for a while but finally can’t keep quiet any longer. There is much talk about the admin. mismanaging. While I can understand that I think we are missing the whole point here….THE STUDENTS! Who will really suffer if this levy doesn’t pass? The students and the teachers more than anyone. I just read someone’s comment on foreclosures and jobs going out of Dayton. Want to talk about the major lay offs if this levy doesn’t pass? And, you can bet those lay offs will consist of teachers and people who have direct contact with the students more than anyone else. I believe in Dayton Public Schools. I think they have done an outstanding job against all the odds (and people) they have going against them. I have always voted for school levies and always will. After all, someone voted for me when I was in school.

By Buford

April 10, 2007 9:11 AM | Link to this

I see no good, personal reason to support this proposed school levy. I base this on a number of circumstances: Past personal experiences with a local DPS High School were almost all negative. Neither of my two children, who finished up at a DPS High School, has anything good to say about their DPS experience. DPS high schools, except for DECA, seldom if ever meet targeted attendence goals, and are often in the 70 percentile range. DPS languishes toward the bottom of the school rating system, up from dead last a number of years. In 1992, the proposed 10.4 mil levy was also advertised as “for our kids.” Truth was, within five months of the passage (4 Nov 92) the Teachers Union called a strike, the teachers walked out for 16 days - until the Union received a nice chunk of that levy. I see the same scenario shaping up now, as the Teachers Union pushes for the levy, waiting/hoping it will pass - so the Union can coerse a substantial pay raise out of it. The actual use of property taxes, as a primary source of revenue/funding for schools - is unconstitutional. Still DPS and the State and local School Boards arrogantly go back to the property owners and try to squeeze more. I don’t believe more money/school funding would do much to solve the DPS student/school problems.

By Buford

April 10, 2007 8:56 AM | Link to this

I see no good, personal reason to support this proposed school levy. I base this on a number of circumstances:

By Daytonian

April 10, 2007 8:01 AM | Link to this

Is it me or does anyone else feel like we’re getting nickled and dimed to death with taxes? It a ‘new’ tax each election and don’t forget the Montgomery County Human Services Levy coming up also! My property taxes are up, water bill is up, Conservancy District tax is up, Telephone bill with state, local and federal taxes, Vectren bill with sales tax, etc., etc.

By JJ

April 10, 2007 5:01 AM | Link to this

I would guess the levy to be in a hurtin. Look at the jobs lost recently in the area, the # of homes for sale, and the foreclosure rate.

By Democratic Natl Convention

April 10, 2007 12:21 AM | Link to this

Damn right it’s in trouble. Just like the schools themselves. Since the board isn’t responsible enough to manage anything we, the voters will be responsible and vote it into oblivion.

By charterschoolhater

April 9, 2007 10:21 PM | Link to this

I would certainly hope the levy is in trouble. Why should we believe that the distict will truly spend the money more wisley than they have in the past. AS far as I am concerned they get not a dime more. That is until they show true improvement in the state mandated outcomes. I do not count the improvement they had this year. Without a change in state rules, there would be no improvement. The Bd. of Ed. is expecting us to beleieve that they did this. This is blantatly untrue and they know it. And they wnat us to give them more money after this dishonesty. I SAY NOT!! VOTE NO ON THE SCHOOL LEVY, I AM!!

By Mary

April 9, 2007 6:33 PM | Link to this

Scott, I have also been waiting to read more Dayton Daily News articles about the levy, how the money would be spent, etc. I think there needs to be more public discussion somehow.

By jemcx

April 9, 2007 6:25 PM | Link to this

15+ mills is an awful lot of money. The extra mills are a tough sell the way they did it � adding to the current mills, not making it a separate issue. I don’t think it is going to go this time.

By Rick

April 9, 2007 5:45 PM | Link to this

Perhaps. The School Board could have supported a levy of the same mills as what we have now and still gotten more revenue. The millage would have applied to the now current values, instead of the much lower property values of 1991. Besides the DPS has something like 12000 less students than it did in 1991.

By wellwhynot

April 9, 2007 5:09 PM | Link to this

I think “unease” might be a good word. I think many of the people and organizations you list are downright afraid to put their names out there. They want to keep their jobs and or positions. Some may be waiting to see who else is going to endorse it before jumping on the bandwagon. If that is the case, I think it is sad. A better response would be: “I believe the schools do/do not need the money but I can’t tell you how to vote.” I also think another issue is that with the building levy people felt the students and community would be direct beneficiaries of the new schools. In the case of the operating levy, others such as teachers and administrators might get some of the money. As we know, many people believe teachers and administrators should be school volunteers rather than employees and are not worthy of a fair wage.