By Rick

September 9, 2007 6:41 PM | Link to this

Jim, I do not appreciate your arrogant insinuation that I have an IQ of 85. Also, over the years, I have read massively on education, including “A Nation at Risk.”

By Mary

September 7, 2007 6:07 AM | Link to this

Laura, I actually agree with some of your comments and concerns regarding the data and parameters to rate and rank districts including graduation rate, percentage of students going on to college, etc. The book I started reading yesterday - “Ivory Tower Blues” -has some interesting discussions of this, as well. The authors talk about the phony expectations the Canadian and U.S. education systems have of students and how these phony expectations are transferred to students and their parents (including grade inflation and social promotion). The authors also tie this to labor markets, keeping students out of he labor market longer, and an over credentialing of the labor market. They also discuss how this destroys education for the brightest students and larger social issues. I am still reading the book, but you might also find it intersting since K-12 is discussed just as much as the colleges.

By Laura

September 6, 2007 8:40 PM | Link to this

OK, let me rephrase my comment. Now that NCLB has created a NEW mess in public education, what can be done about it? I agree that some changes needed to be made. I have some of the same concerns as mentioned before. I don’t think we should be comparing apples and oranges. Some high-achieving countries only educate their best students. Japan has a tremendous suicide rate by students who feel they can’t measure up. It reminds me of the addage: “Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.” NCLB has gone from one extreme to another. First, few schools had any standards at all to guide learning; no goals to shoot for. Now, we have gone to the other extreme with expectations. All students do not have the ability to succeed in every academic area, any more than every student has the ability to sing at a professional level, play an instument well or earn a living playing sports. To put the responsibility for school attendance on the school is beyond unfair. So is rating a school on graduation rates when the law permits them to drop out at 16. Expecting students with limited English skills or special education students to score as if they had no disabilities are more areas where the schools are unfairly rated. Those are a few of the serious flaws I see with NCLB that need to be corrected.

By NCLB Sham

September 6, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

NCLB is a ruse designed to destroy public education so that the majority of the responsibility for educating our children (and the BILLIONS of taxpayer money that goes with it) can be shifted from the public to the private sector. Look at the remediation available: charter conversion or vouchers. Some of the parts of NCLB make a lot of sense. We should do more to improve the achievement gap for minority groups, but hear this and hear it clearly: you can’t fix the achievement gap by JUST looking at the schools. What is being done to help these children’s families? Their neighborhoods? This is the root of the problem and very little is being done because of how conservatives have demonized help for the poor. Bottom line: NCLB us taking your tax money and giving it to private companies and organizations. And the scores still won’t increase. OVERHAUL IT. OVERHAUL IT NOW!

By J

September 6, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this

Mary, get a grip. My classrooms were fun places to be and I taught everything I was supposed to and more. The point to my “rant” was that the kids were exhausted by tedious test taking ALL THE TIME! Kids should be challenged - and always were in my room. But they can also be having fun while doing it. I can remember singing songs to learn multiplication tables and actually having the time to go on nature walks as a class with my science teacher. We had this time because noone was cramming information down a kids throat to make them learn just for testing purposes. I never felt like the tests we had to take when I was growing up were a nuisance. That’s because I don’t ever remember them being made such a big deal over and there certainly weren’t as many as there are now. Yes, sports do only figure in to a small percentage of kids lives but so do music, art, math, science, etc. I was absolutely the worst kid in my classes growing up when it came to math and science. That’s because I was gifted in Music. Kids need to be well-rounded and for some of them that means going out on a football field a tackling their opponents. And what about the tremendous feeling of community when you go to one of these games and see the bleachers packed with parents and neighbors to root their child on. There are most likely instances when that’s the only time in that kids life that he gets cheered from anyone at home for anything he does.

By Mary

September 6, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

Jim, as it turns out, on the international tests you refer to, our cream of the crop also underscores other countries’ cream of the crop even though they do not start out that way. Apparently, our best students become less capable as their education progresses while foreign top students improve. Go see who is getting all the PhDs in science and engineering at OSU and similar universities. To show how insane the system is, we not only import foreign students for our colleges and universities but import foreign athletes on scholarship. This afternoon, I just ran into a friendly Canadian mom who was in town to get her son settled in at Wright State. When I asked her why in the world he had thought of going to Wright State all the way from Canada, to her credit, she first of all mentioned the business degree, then admitted he was also here to play baseball. I bit my tongue as I thought of the over $6 million a year that goes from general funds to the athletic department there and that Wirght State was on the New York attorney generals list for possibly being involved in student loan kickbacks.

By Jim

September 6, 2007 9:42 AM | Link to this

Rick: Education is a state responsibility and should be controlled by the state. The NCLB is a Federal Act. They forced the states to implement rules they want using the backdoor. When Teddy Kennedy, Boehner, and George W. all want the same thing, it’s probably more good for politicians and their fundraising and their pockets,than it is for John Q. Public. As for the internationals tests…, did they test all students at all levels of ability? Or are they testing only cream of the crop? Do those other countries educate all students with a public, free education? Do they have the same pay for teachers? Do they have a 5-day school with 7 hours in a day, or do they have more like Japan? It makes nice media talk for IQ 85 folks to read from a script but reality is reality in education. Do some research on educating all students, including the handicapped and special students.

By Jim

September 6, 2007 8:54 AM | Link to this

Gotta agree with J just a little bit. Sports are the only outlet for some kids, but it’s a very small percent of the total number of kids. And it’s a big outlet for many of the staff and administrators because of their fetish on sports as success so they want to be big man again by coaching the tiny percent of the total school population in that big football game or basketball game not for the kids but for their own ego. Look at all the beer bellies on people watching sports and identifying with the kid running the football-the one kid out of 10000 eligible students in the total school system. The beer bellied guys couldn’t run 10 yards without being winded, but they seem to identify. Hence the focus on athletics rather than academics. And for those wanting the same success as Japanese schools aren”t they the ones with no extracurricular athletics between schools? Aren’t they the ones with physical ed on Saturday school? When schools exist only for the sports this becomes the problem.

By Mary

September 6, 2007 6:37 AM | Link to this

Laura, many of us who have been around awhile would say public education was a big mess long before NCLB. In fact, that was one reason NCLB was passed. “J”, your rant really doesn’t make sense to me. It seems your concept of education is purely fun and low mental challenge, while complaining about an atmosphere of repetitive drills and comparisons to other children. Sounds to me you are talking about sports and show choirs. Are you confused between rec centers and schools. By the way, learning can be fun, too.

By School Supporter

September 5, 2007 11:39 PM | Link to this

I’m not so sure “NCLB has turned public education into a huge mess.” Looks to me like union resistance to NCLB is responsible for part of the mess. Has “NEA Today” published any NCLB success stories so teachers can learn from each other? Have the superintendents’ or boards’ organizations published success stories? Are civil rights organizations asleep at the wheel when they allow a PR campaign to against the accountability required to ensure equal educational opportunity? I’m not suggesting schools should be test prep factories. I am suggesting that situations where teachers and students succeed with NCLB don’t receive much attention—especially among the folks lobbying the ed committees in Congress.

By Rick

September 5, 2007 8:05 PM | Link to this

Lot’s of good posts here. Also some whining. Yes, a lot of folks want it both ways and yes, the NCLB has some significant flaws. Let’s not forget what brought about the greater emphasis on testing, the colossal educational fraud committed by the educational “blobaucracy” over a period of decades. The educational establishment persisted in trying to cram the whole word method of learning to read years and years after it was clear that phonics was better. And let’s not forget new math. Then those international tests came out which demonstrated how bad our educational system had become. The educational establishment had earned our distrust. Sorry, Oldprof, but I refuse to turn the system over to those who failed and were untruthful for so long.

By Laura

September 5, 2007 7:48 PM | Link to this

Well, now that so many relatively intelligent people agree that NCLB has turned public education into a huge mess, what can be done about it? Other than to keep complaining?

By J

September 5, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

Oh Mary - give it up already. We are all tired of your endless dribble about sports in schools. Sports are the only outlets for some kids. Yes, while I do agree that too much attention is placed on sports in our society, GIVE IT A BREAK ALREADY! As for the NCLB crap… as a former music teacher I saw everyday what the “teaching to the test” was doing to my students. They would come to my classroom absolutely exhausted from trying to cram so much into their heads. The “Specials” (music, art, phys ed) all became aplace for them to come and actually enjoy something for a while. And now, with all of the emphasis placed on testing and too little money to go around, what are we getting rid of?? The classes the kids loved to come to - the classes where they could learn without having to feel like they were constantly being compared to every other kid in America. Yes, specials have certain requirements to meet for each grade level, but we could teach them just about anyway we wanted. As long as the point was getting across, the kids were having fun and learning what they needed to learn. NCLB takes all of the fun out of learning. Constantly drilling information into a kids head and then telling them they aren’t good enough because they didn’t do well of the test is not the way to keep kids interested in coming to school.

By Happy Homeschooler

September 5, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

I think that the intentions behind NCLB were good, but NCLB just isn’t reasonable. I don’t think that anyone at the federal level should have anything to do with the individual schools and how they do things. Leave the control of the school to the local level. All of the teaching to the test is a bunch of bull and one of the reasons that my children will never go to a public school. Schools need to work on teaching kids how to learn and to enjoy learning. You can’t teach a child everything that they need to know in 12 years of schooling, but if they know how to learn and they enjoy learning, they will naturally be lifelong learners.

By joe mamma

September 5, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this

old prof, I agree. Except you left out the teachers union wanting it both ways too.

By Jim

September 5, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this

I agree with most of Oldprof’s post but would add that administrators are too tied to athletics at all costs in most of their backgrounds. The public wants accountability from someone else rather than their children and themselves. And when Penn Station has science student of the week for the local high school we’ll know we’ve improved education. Until then it’s like I overhead in a little, provincial town on the outskirts of the major area here: “The school’s doing a good job because the football team’s 6 & 1.” Annie Oakley would have turned over in her grave if she’d heard that.

By Mary

September 5, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

Old prof, I think things would improve if we cut out the lavish rewards and recognition altogether for sports and academics and get students to focus more quietly on their academic learning and lifetime physical fitness and health. There is currently too much noise in the system for students to focus. It is like learning in a three ring circus. Could any adult concentrate? It is like hearing announcements over the school intercom in a noisy classoom. Smaller class sizes would also help, along with curriculum and policies that recognize students have differing abilities and interests. The learning environment needs to change a lot more at school than at home. I agree the news media hype about sports is also to blame, but school administrators and board members certainly go along with it and bear primary responsibility. I noticed the Kirk Heibstreet (spelling?)high school football extravaganza will soon have Burger King as their sponsor, and Miami Valley Hospital helps sponsor Springboro astroturf. It all seems so ludicrous. Where is the learning focus in these three ring circuses?

By Oldprof

September 5, 2007 9:01 AM | Link to this

The problem is that everyone wants to have it both ways. The feds want to control education, but they don’t want to terminate local control and erect a national board of education. The administrators want merit pay, but they haven’t shown that they know which teachers are meritorious (and their own ranks are unfortunately tainted by regular revelations of financial mismanagement and sex offenses). The public wants accountability from everyone except the ones who ought to be primarily responsible for learning—their own children. The bottom line is that until we figure out how to lavish rewards and status on students who are scholars—as we currently do, disproportionately, to those who are athletes, entertainers, or politicos-in-utero—then we’re not going to see students who are motivated to learn. So how’s about it, Scott—when will DDN start putting honor students in that Friday “Varsity” section in greater numbers than obese female football players?

By Retired

September 4, 2007 11:38 PM | Link to this

As a retired administrator I am glad to see that someone is saying enough is enough regarding NCLB. I can personally testify to the fact that the last three to four years of my career that there was so much emphasis placed on testing that we actually deviated from the curriculum. We were teaching test taking skills daily, and then we would have to give practice test week after week, track the data etc., and start the process all over again. Not only did the students have to take the Ohio Proficiency test, they also had to take the Terra Nova test battery twice a year, then there was the reading theme test that had to be taken almost monthly, submit writing samples etc. Now the high school students have the OGT and must pass in order to graduate. It seems like we could never get out of this merry go round. I honestly don’t believe that this was the intention when all of this accountability was first introduced. Yet we continue to do it today. If I were a student now I would say the heck with it. I am not in school to learn how to take test but to get an education and learn by using the skills that I learned at each grade level. No matter what district you are in, nor the college you attend - you get out of it what you put into it. It is as simple as that. When is all this insanity going to come to an end? I have a question that I think would be interesting in researching. Remember the old math books, in the back of the book there were conversion tables showing how many ounces in a pound, how many pounds make a ton, how many pints to a quart, how many quarts to a gallon, etc. I think you get the picture. Can our students do that now. I haven’t seen that in any math books lately. Can a student tell time using a regular watch, instead of a digital one? Do our students know how to read a ruler? Can students do simple additon, subtraction, multiplication, and division without using a calculator? Dayton Public Schools were on the right track when all they had to do was take the California Achievement Test. Scores were going up and we saw gains, and then our government officials decided that this was not good enough so they introduced the “Proficiency Test” plus all the indicators that had to be met. I would like for those individuals to have to take a test to hold public office. Let’s get back to reality and start teaching again and give only one test a year. Now that the better school districts are seeing their scores, AYP going down, maybe this will force a change. I am not against accountability but we have gone overboard. It is time to wake up.

By Laura

September 4, 2007 8:26 PM | Link to this

Those Iowa teachers don’t need to worry about NCLB ever being fully funded. That is never going to happen. The negative parts of NCLB, AYP comes to mind, are beginning to affect even the better achieving districts. Someone eventually is going to have to admit that the expectations of NCLB are impossible for every school district in the nation to achieve. When you set the bar higher than is achievable for some, they will eventually give up and quit trying. That is what is happening all ready. Some districts are deciding that the little bit of federal money they receive isn’t worth the hoops they have to jump through.

By Mary

September 4, 2007 7:16 PM | Link to this

I am glad O’Bama is confronting anti-intellectualism, although I think he should mention this also occurs in non-minority communities. As far as the NCLB furor, I think Democratic candidates, who are usually in the pocket of the unions, should tread lightly. I think recent surveys have shown the public likes accountability and wants NCLB improved, not scrapped.