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'DAYTON DAILY NEWS' TRANSCRIPT

Open government roundtable: "Should permits to carry concealed weapons be open to the public?"

On May 5, the Dayton Daily News asked about 20 people to participate in a roundtable discussion about the issues of CCW permits and the public's right to know vs. an individual's right to privacy. The roundtable was part of a national effort sponsored by the Associated Press Managing Editors to encourage newspapers to discuss open government and freedom of information issues with their communities. The Dayton Daily News was the first newspaper in the country to present a roundtable under this program. Below is an edited transcript of the roundtable.

INTRODUCTION

Steve Sidlo, managing editor Dayton Daily News: "As journalists, we care passionately about freedom of information and about access to government records, about transparency of government. It's critical to democracy - not just to us as journalists but also to ordinary citizens. But we also know a lot of ordinary people don't always share our passion for that and that as journalists we are often seen by some people as arrogant, as more interested in getting a sensational story that'll sell papers or bring viewers to a television screen than we are in being sensitive to concerns among citizens about their personal privacy or their personal security. We recognize that sometimes we're guilty as charged. Sometimes as journalists we don't do a great job of listening."

After this forum, "We want non-journalists to better understand what journalists do and why we feel passionate about it. We'd like the journalists in this room to have a deeper understanding about concerns by ordinary citizens about their privacy and about their security."

SHOULD JOURNALISTS HAVE ACCESS TO THE NAMES OF THOSE WHO HAVE CONCEALED CARRY PERMITS? SHOULD THE PUBLIC?

Terri Clary, computer programmer, Miamisburg: "There is no reason to put the names of people in the paper, but the public should know."

Dayton Police Chief Julian Davis: "The people who go through this training and get the permits, those are not the people who cause the police department problems. We don't worry about those folks."

Julie Weindel, news director, WHIO-TV, Channel 7: "The journalists and the public have a right to know. It's dangerous when you separate the journalists from the public, because it puts us in yet another venue of distrust because we know something the public doesn't. The whole reason we report on public records is because they're public records. There are a lot of rationales for journalists to know. We have done several stories, profiles, on who's carrying concealed weapons. People want to know that. We did one in Clark County - the average age is 50, the average occupation is retired. People want to know that kind of thing. We can't access that information if the records aren't open."

Larry S. Moore, Jamestown, Ohioans for Concealed Carry: "I would challenge the newspaper, the AP, the Ohio newspaper association, to tell me how printing the names and knowing the names of law-abiding citizens who submitted to a background check through their sheriff's office enhances the safety of anybody on the street. It simply doesn't."

Jeff Bruce, editor, Dayton Daily News: "There is a supposition that people carrying guns makes the streets safer, so that's sort of a premise embedded in the question. There is a lot of experience now in this country in states that have kept those records secret and in states where they've been kept open. I'm unaware that in those states where this is a public record that it has resulted in any sort of adverse effect on public safety.

"It has less to do with whether journalists should have access to this, but whether the public has access to these records. And it falls into a general category of how do we want the government to operate - the over-arching theory being, the more government is transparent, the more likely it will be to operate on the level. There are certainly always exceptions to what is disclosed and what is not disclosed and the tension between privacy and public records, and there's always some back and forth with that."

Bob Mullins, public affairs director for ADAMHS board, Montgomery County: "I'm not aware of what the definition of a journalist is. Can anyone with a Web site print these names?"

Jeff Pedro, law enforcement officer and owner of SimTrainer in Moraine: "The overwhelming majority of all concealed permit holders owned guns before the law passed and certainly before they acquired their individual permit, and there was never a controversy prior to that time about the need to know. Secondly, there's not been a single newsworthy incident where a law-abiding concealed permit holder has done anything illegal by way of committing violent acts against other citizens."

Jeff Bruce, editor Dayton Daily News: "This is not about owning a gun and having it in your house; it's about walking around the streets with it concealed on your person. The reason it became a public record issue is because the state of Ohio ? decided in order to be able to do that, you needed to have a permit. If there's a record of this that's collected by the government, is it a record that should be able to be viewed by the citizens?"

Terri Clary, Miamisburg, computer programmer: "I want to know if someone is carrying a gun into my work, I want to know if someone who is working with my children is carrying a gun. I want to know if someone has a gun that I just know. If my child's riding in a car with someone, I want to know if they have a gun. I have a right to know that just as much as they have a right to carry the gun. If I knew someone was carrying a gun, I might not let my child ride in the car with them. You think because someone goes through training and because they have a psychological background check, you don't know. People can snap at any moment. I don't want my children around coaches or just neighbors who are carrying guns."

Gary Daniels, ACLU-Ohio: "If the records are open to the media, then they should be open to the public, or they should be open to nobody. Second, open records are for the citizens and the media to keep an eye on what the government is doing, not necessarily so citizens can keep an eye on each other, although citizens can and do use public records for that purpose. A suspicion of government is generally a good thing; it's why the ACLU exists. We've been dealing since 9/11 with the government collecting all types of information that we don't think they should be collecting. There is certainly something to be said about the government collecting more information than might be necessary. But ... somebody has to make sure the government is doing the right thing when it comes to whom they're issuing the licenses to."

Bob Langham, pistol director, Ohio Rifle and Pistol Association: "OK, the media has the names, but what are they going to do with the names? Every time there's a car accident, are they going to run back and look it up, 'Uh-oh, he's carrying a concealed weapon?' I mean, what's the purpose of them actually having it outside of going through and publishing the list, which some newspapers have done, or are they going to keep it quiet? What are they going to do with it?"

Julie Weindel, news director, WHIO-TV, Channel 7: "Here's an example of what we'd do: Gun accidents among kids are up. Gun violence among kids is up. If a child shoots another child with a gun they found in a car, we're going to check to see if there was a concealed permit for that gun because that's another aspect of the story, to show another aspect to the public. OK, they didn't follow the law, they did follow the law, this is the situation.

"Let me give you a scenario: The average age of concealed weapon holders in Clark County is 50 years old. Let's say they're a grandpa. They're helping out their grandson's Cub Scout den and they're taking them down to the Reds game and they stop for gas. He goes in and pays. He's following the law, he's got his gun out in front. The kids get the gun while he's in, one shoots another. We want to know if he has a concealed weapon permit for that because it adds another aspect to the story, which is good for the public's knowledge of whether this law's working or not."

Patti Schwarztrauber, executive director, Artemis Center: "Those records should be open both to the public and to the journalists. We're looking at this solely from the perspective that anyone who obtains this kind of permit is doing so for a defensive purpose, and I don't think that's always the case. I know there are many individuals who will carry regardless of whether they have a concealed weapon permit and I know the majority of people we're most concern about are those people, but I also know that it's of great interest, for example, to a battered woman who is being stalked to learn whether or not the individual who's stalking her has the right to carry concealed."

Larry Moore, Ohioans for Concealed Carry: "The news director said firearm accidents are up. That's an absolute myth. Firearms accidents have decreased 76 percent since 1930 and continue to fall today. More children die in swimming pools than they do as a result of firearms accidents.

"As far as addressing concealed carry holders, I thought you'd be more interested in protecting a woman who has a concealed handgun license and doesn't want her abusive ex-husband to know where she is. During the background check, the sheriff will not issue a license if there is an outstanding protective warrant, if that person has ever been convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence activity or a felony. If he had the license before the domestic abuse started, that license will be suspended until such a time as a restraining order is lifted."

Patti Schwarztrauber, Artemis House: "I think it is felony only, and the reality of domestic violence convictions is that there are usually many, many instances of domestic violence before there is any conviction. The first conviction, if there is one, is normally going to be a misdemeanor conviction, so there is that entire period where this person is behaving in a violent manner and he still would be eligible to carry that gun. And we would never recommend to a battered woman that she purchase a gun or try to keep a gun, because in the vast majority if cases, guns are used against women."

Jeff Pedro, SimTrainer: "The last two arguments are based on pure supposition. They're offering up conjecture that, well, because they carry it vs. owned it, they're more likely to engage in acts of violence. That is simply an inaccurate statement. There's not a single incident where a permit holder carrying it has done something illegal, in a domestic situation or otherwise. Now there are many where they owned it and they don't have the permit and they've gone out and enacted acts of violence. None of the gun violence in the city has anything to do with concealed permit holders."

Dayton Police Chief Julian Davis: "He's absolutely right about that. We have very little concern about people that have the permit and actually carry the weapon. It's the people that don't that we have concerns about. Most of the time they don't buy it for offensive or defensive purposes. They just buy it and carry it because it's something they can do, and a big portion of these people are retired law enforcement officers who actually come back and get permits to carry."

Jeff Bruce, DDN: "There is a lot of conjecture about the consequences and upshots of the law. After a few years, if we have this data, we have crime records against which we can cross match this data, we can perhaps learn some things about whether or not the enactment of the concealed carry law actually worked toward its intended purposes. For instance, how many times did someone actually save their life or the lives of someone else because they had a gun? Maybe we find out, none at all. Maybe this is just people feeling insecure and feeling better having a gun and it never got used. Or maybe we find by cross-matching that data that there have, in fact, been instances in which a concealed weapon was used improperly. We won't know unless we have that information to test against the supposition that underpins the creation of the law in the first place.

"I would argue that the amount of information that is open to journalists is already inadequate - names, county, date of birth. I'd like to have more information so we can map that against other data and really get a better picture of how the law's being implemented."

Kristin McAllister, reporter, Dayton Daily News: "As a journalist who is a hobby target shooter, it was an interesting situation for me to write about this issue. It's sort of like with martial arts, those who are most trained don't go out and pick a fight. The same thing with gun carriers - if you have a gun, your idea is not to go out there and start something. Your idea is to protect. You don't want to get into an encounter where you're going to use your gun."

Larry Moore, OFCC: "The data is out there. It has been thoroughly studied and published in a book, 'More Guns, Less Crime.'"

Jeff Pedro, SimTrainer: "As a father of six children, one of the first things I do when I send my kids off to spend a weekend, I ask the parent about these kinds of issues. I say the simple solution to (Terri Clary's) problem if it's a teacher, a citizen, a neighbor, ask them if they have a gun and if they're carrying it with them, and then if they say yes, then she can say, 'Well I choose not to allow my child to go with you.'"

Larry Moore, OFCC: "She has a responsibility to do that as a parent. I'm a parent of five children."

Terri Clary, computer programmer: "Of course I do that. I ask many questions. I'm a responsible parent. But I also think that I don't understand why - if someone has the ability to threaten my life, why don't I have the right to know that? People have guns locked up in their cabinet, that's one thing. If somebody's carrying a gun, they might want to use it. Why would they not keep it locked in the cabinet? Why are they carrying it if they're not intending to use it at some time? Otherwise why not just lock it home?"

Bill Jarrett, owner Vandalia Tactical: "I'm sorry, but in today's world, I would prefer my children were with someone who was armed and who could protect them."

Larry Moore, OFCC: "I carry virtually every day, every place I go, every moment I possibly can. And when I get up in the morning, I pray to God I don' t have to use it. That's a fact. The people you need to be worried about aren't the concealed handgun license holders. The people you need to be worried about are the people who are out there on the street, doing drugs, doing gangs, carrying guns without licenses. They're the people you need to worry about shooting you."

Kaamil Slaughter, president, Highview Hills Neighborhood Association, Dayton: "The kids in my neighborhood with guns don't have permits to carry guns. They do have guns - there are a lot of incidents in my neighborhood - they have guns and vests. Where'd they get those from?"

Cissy Waldron Seibel of Kettering, development director in Huber Heights/Riverside area: "I have not heard anything yet that tells me that the journalists have the right to have this information as opposed to the general public. I would say, either everyone gets it or no one gets it. And I'm sorry to say I'm on the side that no one gets it. The concealed carry, they have to pass the test, they have to get training. The chief has agreed, it isn't the guys doing the concealed carry that are your problem, it's the criminals. And Terri, I am a very concerned parent, but we don't even ask the guy who's driving if he's drinking. We don't know that general information about him. That is a worry and concern. My biggest concern is the journalists, because I know what the Dayton Daily News will do with it, I've heard some of what WHIO will do with it, but I don't have control over the rest of them. I don't know what they're going to do or how they're going to use it. I think that's a power that I'm not comfortable with."

State Rep. Tom Brinkman Jr., R-Cincinnati: "One of the things I was worried about was the slippery slope. Right now we treat smokers like they're a pariah. I'm concerned about, Who is the media? What if hospitals say, You know, we don't think guns are a good thing, so we're going to check and see if any of our nurses have gun permits. Or we're even going to ask it on an application. Or we're an insurance company and we're going to start rating or profiling people if they have a permit or gun at home. And I was worried that we would see this slippery slope, because again, we don't know what a journalist is, and so that's what I'm concerned about."

Kristin McAllister, reporter, DDN: "How should we use this information? It goes to the core of what is good reporting. You don't use this as a weapon, you use it as a tool to inform, finding trends. We are seeing less and less information coming to us, and we're in this feeling of getting as much information as you can right now. It doesn't mean we're going to use it. It means we get it now because it may not be there with the way the different records are changing and access to records are changing. I would hope that the public would trust us, but I also agree that the records should be open to everybody. But if it is going to be open only to journalists, then I think they should trust that we're going to use it responsibly."

AUDIENCE QUESTIONS

Eddie Roth, editorial writer and columnist, Dayton Daily News: To the law enforcement representatives, "when one of your officers makes a routine traffic stop, not one that would give them reason to think it would be violent, would you like them to know whether the owner of that car has a concealed permit?"

Maj. Jeff Busch, Montgomery County Sheriff's Office: "The officers should be trained to approach every car with caution because you don't have any way of knowing what's going to happen. We train our officers that nothing's routine."

Eddie Roth, DDN: "We've heard from Chief Davis that he doesn't think the public should have access to this information, and just as matter of routine for his officers that they should find out. I guess the question occurs to me, Why shouldn't I be able to know if I have a question about somebody?"

Larry Moore. OFCC: "The law also requires the concealed handgun license holder to notify that officer at any stop, walking on the street or otherwise. The last thing I want is a nervous police officer outside my vehicle."

Jeff Bruce, DDN: "I grew up in a household with lots of guns, and I remember how upset my father was when the government started registering guns, and the general notion, I think, and he was an NRA member, was the federal government has this information and ooh, we don't feel good about that. I'm sort of surprised that there seems to be this level of comfort on the part of the concealed carry advocates that it's perfectly fine for law enforcement to have these records, but for the general public not to. It seems like there's been a sort of flip flop with the kind of information they feel comfortable with the government having vs. all the rest of us."

Cy Byrd, president of the Ohio Gun Collectors Association: "There's a pretext that the newspaper person or person with radio or TV is going to tell you the truth. But it just doesn't happen. A lot of times, it's their personal opinion, a conjecture, something that's not correct."

Joe Hauser, Dayton Daily News reader advisory panel: "If I Joe Public am to examine license holders of concealed weapon permits, I'm going to look at those names, and if I know that person, I'm generally gong to try and stay away from that person from now on. My reaction to that is, steer clear of that person, I don't want to get them mad and they shoot me. My question is, Why the fear of me, Joe Public, being able to find out that you have a license to carry a concealed weapon?"

Cissy Seibel, development director: "I think that's the role for the journalists. I think education is far better than publishing that list. I'd love to see more journalists teach people about this rather than to publish the list, because I think information could help you, I think it could help Terri, I think it could help a lot of people in this room, that even if I hate guns - which I do, and I don't want them around me, but I'd be better educated about it. This certainly is not a black-and-white issue."

Jeff Pedro, SimTrainer: "Education is the key."

Larry Moore, OFCC: "In the city of Dayton, there is something called the firearms owner ID card. They've had it 10-plus years. I don't know if that list is public or not. I've tried to find out and have been unsuccessful."

Bob Sharpe, CPA and producer of Channel 23's We the People: "I had my son's car vandalized and one time stolen right out of my driveway. If information is public, if you can secure that information ... it'd be a mark - they have guns. They'll be in my house looking for the guns. That's my concern. I don't want anyone to have a chance to come through my front door. That's why I feel that record should be with the police but not public to anybody because there are people - not like you - but other people that will take advantage of that, just like identity theft. My concern is, my house is my sanctuary. I don't want people to know too much about me."

John Graham, minister and director of Greenville's Koinonia House for men released from prison: "The open records law is for the government, so we understand what the government is about, but what I see here is a Pandora's Box of information that's about me as a citizen. And if it's here, what's next? And should my records be open? Could it be medical records next? I'm a private citizen. I feel I'm different from the government."

Cy Byrd, Ohio Gun Collectors: "I have trouble with the media having this information when it's a group of people that have Sweeps Week."

Julie Weindel: "We have three ratings periods a year that we look at demographics. We have ratings every day of the year. To do an exploitative story for two or three days does not make one blip in our ratings, because we average 365 days. The networks are a little different. They base whether they're going to spend $40 million on 'Survivor' next year if it doesn't pass, but that is absolutely not how TV journalists base their stories on Sweeps."

Mrs. Bob Langham: "I don't have a permit, but I don't think anyone has a right to know if I'm carrying, if I have that permit. As long as I don't do anything illegal, it's none of your business. I've already been robbed once. I don't want my name in the paper so people can come and see, 'Hey, she's got a concealed carry, we know where we can get a gun, let's go.' I don't want that to happen to me, and believe me, it's out there. It's going to happen. You're asking us to wear a sign around our neck telling, 'I carry.'"

Terri Clary, computer programmer: "If someone feels they have the right to carry something that can be lethal to someone else, how come the other people around them don't have the right to know that?"

Jeff Bruce, DDN: "There's a lot of records out there about home ownership, about tax rolls, all sorts of records are out there about us as individuals, and we may have various feelings about that, but it's how government manages these records about us that's important to know, too. Just because my name is at the recorder's office, I don't think, 'Oh, he owns a home, my home is going to get robbed.' Similarly, if I had a concealed carry permit, I don't think the fact that that record was out there in any way would make me a larger target than anyone else. I guess I have some questions about the conjecture behind the possible consequences of these records being available to the public. We really don't have a lot of experience that demonstrates that's so."

Bob Langham, ORPA: "You're concerned about your kids when they go out with someone and they're carrying a gun. Alright, when they go out and someone is driving, do you ask to check their driving record, find out how many speeding tickets they've had, reckless driving? I mean, do you research that? And you look at the number of accidents that we've had just recently with teenagers."

Terri Clary, computer programmer: "Comparing driving records to lethal weapons - it's a gun you can take out and shoot at anything, and just because someone has a permit does not mean they're sane. I know people who have guns, who bought guns, they're not sane."

Patti Schwarztrauber, Artemis: "What I'm hearing is, people who want to be able to carry and not have that information public, they're talking about the vulnerability that they experience having that information be published. But in my perspective, I don't know how you can compare the vulnerability that someone might break into my house knowing I have a gun vs. the vulnerability of the person who does not have the gun and who does not know that you have the gun in a confrontation. If we're talking vulnerability, the person without the gun tends to be the more vulnerable individual."

How well has DDN covered the concealed carry issue?

Bill Jarrett, Vandalia Tactical: "I think they've over covered it. I think they've made it an issue that is not an issue. The concealed carry law is a very simple law designed to allow the public of Ohio to defend themselves from altercations. It's no different than any other law in the sense that it's there for the good of the people. So why is it a big story? Why is it an issue here?"

Jeff Pedro, SimTrainer: "We could solve all the problems tomorrow and eliminate all the inadequacies of the past by just putting a headline in the paper that says, 'The concealed carry law has no impact on violent crime.' You go into any factual data that you want, because it's out there. The distinguishing feature of the law is the mandated training. And if tomorrow you run that headline and address factual data, you satisfy a lot of people who've been dissatisfied with the way it's been handled up to this point.

"I think they've under-reported both sides."

State Rep. Tom Brinkman: "You guys in the media are perfectly willing to accept the accident statistics of the State Highway Patrol. You don't go and look at every little accident to see what's going on. Well, the state, the attorney general, publishes all the facts about the concealed carry law - how many permits were issued, how many were revoked, why they were revoked - none because of any crimes, mainly because of failure to pay child support - and I don't know why the Dayton Daily News or any other newspaper - I mean I question my government, too, don't get me wrong - but with statistics, you wouldn't question the accident statistics that the highway patrol puts out, why would you not be satisfied with the statistics the attorney general puts out on concealed carry?"

Jeff Bruce, DDN: "The statistics you get from the highway department include a lot more data. They include the names of people who are involved in the accident, the types of vehicles, whether alcohol is involved, whether the license has been suspended or not. There would be a rich field of data from which you could make conclusions about highway safety issues. There's a paucity of data available to journalists, not the public, in the law the way it is. If anything, more data ought to be available if you are in fact going to do meaningful analysis of how all these things work. For instance, there have been school bus drivers involved in accidents. Well, because you can cross-match the names of school bus drivers, which are a public record, with criminal records, you might find out, 'Oh, my gosh, the school district is hiring people with DUI convictions,' and as a consequence of that research, schools are able to clean up their hiring practices and school children are safer. That's the kind of example where this kind of research using data can be done for the public good."

Rep. Tom Brinkman: "But when you cross reference the school bus drivers, you cross reference the ones with the felonies. You don't publish the ones that don't have felonies, all the other school bus drivers who are OK. In this case, all the people who don't have any felonies or anything are available to be published, and that's what I'm concerned about."

Jeff Bruce: "But you would need the names of all school bus drivers of any kind to run that kind of analysis."

HOW WELL HAS THE MEDIA COVERED THIS ISSUE? WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM IT TO HELP FIND A BALANCE BETWEEN THE PUBLIC'S RIGHT TO KNOW AND AN INDIVIDUAL'S RIGHT TO PRIVACY?

Rep. Tom Brinkman: "The first time this was published, in Shelby County, they put the names and addresses in there, which is against the law. I mean, that's totally irresponsible."

Larry Moore, OFCC: "In my opinion, the media in general has a distinct bias against guns in their reporting. They don't report when crime is avoided by display of a firearm, they don't report it because that's non-news. There's not cartridge cases all over the street, there's not a body, and there's not a police tape up there - "Do not cross this line" - to make the news. Those instances happen millions of times a year and go unreported. That's one of the problems with the media. The other is the sensationalism that seems to be needed to make the ratings, to sell the papers - the blood in the streets, the shoot 'em out at Dodge City and OK Corral, and 'Oh my God, every road rage incident is going to result in a shootout at Fifth and Main.' They need to avoid that kind of hype."

Cissy Seibel, development director: "They did an excellent job (in Sunday, May 1, coverage). And I'm sorry, but the reason we pick up the paper is because we want to know those things. I'm expecting you to hit one of my hot buttons, otherwise why would I bother reading it? I want to know general information, but I want to know those things, too. I think they did an excellent job."

Chief Julian Davis: "I thought it was very good (May 1 coverage). The two stories were excellent. It talked about how the law is still unsettling and how people are still upset about it. And the other story about law enforcement officers that now carry, I thought it was very informative."

Julie Weindel, WHIO-TV: "By the way, the No. 1 reason people watch TV news? It's weather. It's not the sensational stories. It's weather, just so you know.

"We spent days and devoted a whole week at a training range to show what went through to get this training. Aside from what happened in Shelby County, there has been a lot of positive media coverage of this issue."

Jeff Bruce, DDN: "There was a supposition by this gentleman earlier that somehow the media is deliberately ignoring the positive data of how the concealed carry law is actually working effectively. If, in fact, the police departments in the area are indeed collecting that data, we'd welcome it and it would be a very interesting story to do. In fact, I wonder if law enforcement even gets that data. I would think oftentimes if someone used a gun as a deterrent, it might not even get reported. But as far as I know, there probably isn't a lot of data collected on that to get to the media in the first place, to counter that point.

"Second, in the article that talked about the use of concealed carry weapons on the part of former law enforcement officers, many of those officers asked us not to name them, even though we had their names. And we did, in fact, respect their wishes in the way we reported this."

Kristin McAllister, DDN: "When the law went into effect, the approach that we at Dayton Daily took was, Well, let's take that class, let's find out what the law's about so we can educate the public and become more knowledgeable on it. What does it take to go through the class? Is this really a good class? Is it really going to prepare people? Or is it just making somebody happy at the state level?"

How could coverage have been improved?

Larry Moore, OFCC: "Report fairly on both sides. It was reported that Toby Hoover is a victim of crime and that she is fighting against this law because her husband was murdered. However, Chad Bous of Ohioans for Concealed Carry, who is taking a different approach to protect his family, is also a victim of crime, but that information was conveniently left out of that story.

"I think it could have been improved with the opening and closing paragraphs, also. Those two paragraphs both start out on one side of the story, they set the tone."

Jeff Bruce, DDN: "It presented on the front page anecdotal comments from two different people who represent both sides of the argument, both of which were given equal space. My perspective would be I thought both sides were equally played.

"We have to make a distinction between privacy that is protected by the Constitution, which a concealed weapon is not, otherwise there would be no need to issue a permit. Once you've issued a permit, you've generated a record. So the question is, what's the accessibility of that record?"

Larry Moore, OFCC: "I have experienced discrimination at work because of this issue, because of my outspoken position and lobbying for this law."

Bob Mullins, ADAMHS Board: "I have a real concern that law-abiding people who have no criminal record who have a permit have the position of having their names published. But when a convicted felon who returns to the community, especially a convicted felon who has used an illegal weapon in the execution of the felony for which he was convicted, we have a governor now who has taken a stance that that person's right to privacy is very great, and the news media has no way of knowing where that convicted felon who's used a weapon is living. But the news media knows who I am. I think that's incredulous.

"If a CCW holder's privacy is not honored, I would also think a convicted felon's privacy would be questioned."

Rep. Tom Brinkman: "We struggle with these issues all the time in the general assembly. Things I would never think about. There's a very nice area up around Cleveland, and there was a bill that was going to hide the architectural renderings of the house on the auditor's Web site, because apparently these are million dollar homes with the architect's prized drawings, and people would get the architectural records and then recreate the house somewhere else. Someone introduced a bill that would protect those. The news media, predictably, went nuts because they want to have that out there for tax reasons. We never really struck a balance. But that's just another example. It's not just concealed carry. It's tax records. I hate the fact that my house is on the auditor's Web site because it's a picture from 1992 and I kind of upgraded it a little since then and it makes it look bad. We struggle with those issues. And sex offenders — every year we've talking about those."

Jeff Bruce, DDN: "I do think the Internet has changed our feelings about these kinds of issues. Six months ago I was looking to make sure I paid my property taxes and discovered that you can not only find a picture of my house online on the county's Web site, not only my address, but also a map on how to get to my house. I don't really object to that being part of the public record, but it was a little disquieting to realize just how quickly anyone could access it on the Internet. You think of the news media, 'Oh, they're always going to be for openness,' and generally speaking that's where we come from because we believe openness and transparency in government lead to better government, but these are real issues, and I think the ready access to this kind of data is probably disquieting to everyone. I do think there's a legitimate tension there, and that's why we have these kinds of discussions."

Larry Moore, OFCC: "My basic view is quite simple. I believe that in a free society that we must always protect the freedom and rights of an individual. That's the founding premise of our nation, and that's my philosophical standpoint on it."

Gary Daniels, ACLU: "Whether we all know it or not, our privacy is compromised many times in a single day with all of the information that's out there about us. For instance there are some court systems around Ohio that post traffic tickets online and records of traffic stops. And it contains on some of these tickets not only personal information such as the addresses of where that person lives but I have also seen Social Security numbers of people online. So if someone wanted to go absolutely nuts with identity theft, all they have to do is sit in their office in their pajamas and start going through different court Web sites and see what they can come up with. Everyone is very queasy about ID theft. We've got Lexis-Nexis here in this area with stories that have come out with that. The DSW Shoe Warehouse in Columbus. So I think no matter whether you are pro-gun or anti-gun, or pro-concealed carry or anti-concealed carry, there's a very understandable feeling of caution and what might happen. The more records the government keeps, the more paper that they generate. Where does this all end?"

Laura Rench, co-owner Country Pines Christmas Tree Farm in Jefferson Twp. and community activist: "It's people putting hurdles in front of me, of saying I can't have that information, that makes me want to know why I can't have that information. I think what responsible news people bring to the table is an overall general discussion and questioning about what are our rights and what do we have the right to know? Who has the responsibility to have information and keep it to themselves? In my situation, I wanted to know some information about my federal government, about the United States Army. When I had difficulty finding that, I became more and more distrustful. So to say to some folks, 'Leave it to the federal government or leave it to a law enforcement agency to have this information and keep it privately,' that doesn't make me comfortable. The media should act as a watchdog and just bring the issues to the forefront, whichever side they're on. Give me an education, and different sides of the story are always educational. Education, analysis, research is always ongoing. That's how we get history. I don't think anyone can say, 'The analysis has been done, so it's over.'"

Larry Moore, OFCC: "I think we're asking the question backward. We need to examine what we've already learned from drivers license records, from medical records and other records that are no longer public ... and apply that to concealed carry holders along with the national statistics that concealed carry holders absolutely represent the most law-abiding sector of society. I think the information we've learned is out there."

Kaamil Slaughter, Highview Hills: "I figure if a person has a permit to carry a gun, they shouldn't have their name published."

Jeff Bruce, DDN: "There is a feeling that the fact that someone has a gun permit that is inherently a private thing. In fact, the Legislature in its wisdom decided in order to carry a gun on your person you had to get a permit. There are all sorts of permit processes that are ordinarily public records. The anomaly here is the notion that this kind of permit shouldn't be public record. Virtually all permits are public records."

Gary Daniels, ACLU: "There is not a first amendment right to public records, there's no right whatsoever. If the government wanted to tomorrow, they could wipe out the public record laws in Ohio for the most part. And if they wanted to, the government itself can draw that distinction. So certainly there are an awful lot of permits out there."

Jeff Bruce, DDN: "Generally speaking, we've decided that permits issued by the government are open record. I'm unaware of any mischief that's accrued as a consequence of these public records being public records. The overarching issue is, Do we believe in having an open society in which the public has the maximum opportunity to know about what government's doing? To me, that's the cornerstone of democracy."

Bill Jarrett, Vandalia Tactical: "I have this fear that we CCW permit holders have created a situation whereby we're making the rest of the population think we have something to hide. We're the most honest and civilized of society, we passed all the background checks, we're law-abiding, we're taking training, we know how to safely use guns. But I have this fear that we've created a climate insinuating we have something to hide, and we don't."

Mrs. Bob Langham: "I don't mind my name being on a list, I just don't want it published. If you want to go to the courthouse and look it up, please feel free. But why should I have it published in front of everyone?"

Jeff Pedro, SimTrainer: "There are many spontaneous acts of violence in this country every day, and CCW permit holders are your best allies. It's going to take three to five minutes for law enforcement to get to the scene, and in the balance of time, people's lives hang. So it's going to take the acts of heroic, willing, armed, trained citizens to intervene. They are the only ones who can save you."

Cissy Seibel: "We know how the Dayton Daily News is responsible as journalists or they wouldn't be putting on this public forum. I worry about the Shelby counties and the Times whatever paper and the guys in Cleveland. And WHIO may not do it, but what about the small guy over there who does need the ratings? It's a can of worms that we're opening, and I'm not sure if we need to. When I need to get a list of pedophiles, I know where to get it. Why would it be any different? I want that list, I want to access it when I need to; I'm not sure I need my newspaper to do it. And while you're responsible journalists here, out there are some that are not. And it's that general mistrust the public has, not because of the responsible journalists, but for the irresponsible ones we keep seeing."